Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery

[Tuffer]

So ive been searching hi and low for batteries that i can use that will last me a while, Ive come across the Foam batteries by First energy, checked out the Battle born, Ended up buying a rack of Used 13.2 kWh Rack Mount Mega 3.3 Samsung SDI ESS Energy Storage Battery 16S 60 Volt, Which i'm having buyers remorse over. Now i've run in to these Nickel Irons from. https://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
Does anyone have experience with these? Thanks for the input.

 

[gnubie]

They are quite robust and really do last a very long time but there are a lot of gotchas that make them unsuitable for a lot of uses.

These are the items against them for solar storage IMO
- upfront cost
- high daily self discharge (1-2%)
- really poor charge / discharge efficiency of potentially less than 65%

These are just general negatives about them as they can all be handled, it just makes life with them a little more difficult
- replacing electrolyte every 10 years or so
- finicky charging
- poor charge and discharge rates per cell
- poor energy density per volume and per weight

 

[PHoganDive]

They also produce a lot of hydrogen gas during charging and need to be very well ventilated to prevent battery explosions.

 

[Tuffer]

Well good to know, Guess Lithium it is, Thanks for all the feedback

 

[JIMMY]

I looked into these a fair bit earlier this year.

The bottom line for me, as with the comments above, was that they are much more expensive, much larger and have lower round trip efficiency than Lifepo4.

Considering a LiFePO4 battery system, if sized correctly, has the potential to last 6000+ cycles the extra life expectancy of the NiFe battery was not worth it.

Jimmy

 

[Tuffer]

Thanks Jimmy

 

[April]

However they use Lye (water through ashes) as an electrolyte and this can be made and added yourself if the electrolyte needs changing in 20 years or so . They can therefore be kept going for a long period of time and so Preppers like them . There is a Hawaii guy who uses and gives his reasons on video. Its called why I chose nickle iron cells or something like that

 

[Steve_S]

So ive been searching hi and low for batteries that i can use that will last me a while, Ive come across the Foam batteries by First energy, checked out the Battle born, Ended up buying a rack of Used 13.2 kWh Rack Mount Mega 3.3 Samsung SDI ESS Energy Storage Battery 16S 60 Volt, Which i'm having buyers remorse over. Now i've run in to these Nickel Irons from. https://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
Does anyone have experience with these? Thanks for the input.

I'd like to know what's wrong with the Samsung Packs you got ? Could you please elaborate & help enlighten those who may be considering these units.

 

[The_Confused]

I would also like to know why you're having buyers remorse since I'm also considering the Samsung packs, they are technically end of life (80% capacity), but they technically stil have a ways to go before being useless. For $10k I would be able to buy 52kWh of lithium storage.

 

[mrevesz]

The idea that if SHTF you can make your own lye and replace the electrolyte.... while technically true... I would say you could just buy a big box of lye for $20 and sit that next to the battery and you'd have your electrolyte for the next 100 years.

They are an interesting battery technology. I really think the price of them is a bit high considering the materials that go into making them. I feel that this price could be a lot lower if they were more widely adopted.

 

[bobstay]

I've played with a 50Ah 12V NiFe bank - like you, my driver was the long life aspect. The biggest pain in the arse for me was the wide voltage swing. Connect a modest load (3-5A), and the voltage drops to 10V or less. Connect a modest charge source (~5A) and the voltage flies up to 17V unless limited by the charge controller. Running an inverter off one is an exercise in futility because the inverter hits its low-voltage cutoff as soon as you load it, unless there's enough sun on the panels to keep the voltage up. I've since switched to NiFePO4, and am much happier. I reckon they'll last a good while if I'm conservative with not using the top & bottom 10% of their capacity, keeping away from the knees of the charge curve.

 

[jimbo78]

ok, there are a few points here that are simply not true...

These are the items against them for solar storage IMO
1- upfront cost
2- high daily self discharge (1-2%)
3- really poor charge / discharge efficiency of potentially less than 65%

These are just general negatives about them as they can all be handled, it just makes life with them a little more difficult
4- replacing electrolyte every 10 years or so
5- finicky charging
6- poor charge and discharge rates per cell
7- poor energy density per volume and per weight

1/ Yes these batteries are expensive compared to most so I agree, longevity costs money
2/ When the sun disappears for a few months then this will surly be a massive issue! I'll let you know when that happens.
3/ Its quite disingenuous to suggest 65%, if you seek 130% capacity then yes. at 100% its inline with lead acid +80%
4/ replacing electrolyte is better than buying new batteries and throwing your old into landfill, just sayin.
5/ Charging can be finicky yes. But you do get used to the quirks after a little experience like any chemistry.
6/ Yes charge/discharge rates can be around the 0.05-0.1C rate, so size appropriately
7/ energy density is irrelevant for static solar storage!!!

I go into great depth in my thread...

NI-FE 1000ah 12V with 5kw of panels running 4kw Reverse Cycle AC for heating house

-Nickel-Iron (NI-FE) 1000ah 12V (12kw of usable storage) -5kw of panels -4kw Reverse Cycle AC for heating and cooling (~900w electrical power) Hi everybody, I have been busy building my solar system which is primarily designed to heat my house in the winter. I initially looked at...

diysolarforum.com

 

[gnubie]

OH NOES I MUSTS BE WRONG

Well not really. Everything I said is actually correct.

Hehe, density not important. Maybe not important for you. Structure to support a very heavy battery doesn't just appear out of thin air, nor the space for the structure. See what I did there? I actually used the information in the way I presented it in my original post it than taking it out of context and posting it in a point list. People that do that sort of thing are a bit silly, IMO.

I have been following your thread regarding living with Ni-Fe because I found it quite interesting to see how things turn out in practice, but you know, I think I'll remove it from my watch list.

 

[NMNeil]

So ive been searching hi and low for batteries that i can use that will last me a while, Ive come across the Foam batteries by First energy, checked out the Battle born, Ended up buying a rack of Used 13.2 kWh Rack Mount Mega 3.3 Samsung SDI ESS Energy Storage Battery 16S 60 Volt, Which i'm having buyers remorse over. Now i've run in to these Nickel Irons from. https://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
Does anyone have experience with these? Thanks for the input.

Some bedtime reading for you.

1911 publication on testing an Edison battery.

Test of an Edison storage battery : Overmier, Melvern D : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Thesis (B.S.)--University of Illinois, 1911

archive.org

1916 publication by Edison showing the original battery factory and how they were made.

The Edison Alkaline Storage Battery : Edison Storage Battery Company : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Book digitized by Google from the library of the University of Michigan and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.

archive.org

From NASA

NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) 19840025964: Nickel-iron battery system safety : NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The generated flow rates of gaseous hydrogen and gaseous oxygen from an electrical vehicle nickel-iron battery system were determined and used to evaluate the...

archive.org

NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) 19830008587: Testing of the Eagle-Picher nickel-iron, the Globe ISOA lead-acid, and the Westinghouse nickel-iron battery subsystems in an electric-vehicle environment : NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) : Free

Three full size developmental batteries were tested with electric vehicles; two nickel-iron batteries and a lead-acid battery. Constant speed and driving...

archive.org

NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) 19810004476: JPL's electric and hybrid vehicles project: Project activities and preliminary test results. [power conditioning and battery charge efficiency : NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) : Free Download,

Efforts to achieve a 100 mile urban range, to reduce petroleum usage 40% to 70%, and to commercialize battery technology are discussed with emphasis on an all...

archive.org

You can download any of these in pdf and other formats.
All in the public domain, so no copyright issues.

 

[jimbo78]

but you know, I think I'll remove it from my watch list.

Thank you!! See what I did there? We cant have too many going off plantation now can we? Must keep them in the company store! Can't allow them to be free! Couple sets of panels + spare pot ash + deionized water + NIFE cells = lifetime Free energy device!! We cant have that now can we!! How does that help the economic parasites take everything away from you??? Nickel by Nickel, dime by dime!

 

[jimbo78]

Here is another old Edison manual from 1914

https://web.archive.org/web/2012070...ual of Storage Battery Practice (c) 1914_.pdf

 

[schmism]

I watch SVseeker, the guy whos been building a 70' steel hull sail boat in his front yard for like the past 5? years.... He was all set to use old Ni-Fe batts. has several videos of all the work he put into reconditioning them. I consider the guy an 11 on the 1-10 scale of DIY'ers. When he fails to make them work, (he gave up on them) then thats when you know they are not a viable option in todays world.

When the zombie apocalypse hits you wont be nurseing these batteries along. Youll be wondering around the town looking to loot all the LFP batts you can or straight up FLA. That forklift battery starts looking real good.

 

[jimbo78]

When the zombie apocalypse hits

I'll let you know what that happens also! Also thanks for the confimation that I'm onto something. How do you know when your over the target? You take the most flack!