Yes. You made a car payment and didn't even get to keep the car at the end.
Off topic, EV vehicle opinions…
- Thread starter Supervstech
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Yes. You made a car payment and didn't even get to keep the car at the end.
fromport
Solar Addict
I did not have enough taxes to pay to get the $7500 IRS, and the lease company deducted $6000 (or so) from the amount I owed on the lease.
For me it would have been better, even when I would have bought out at end of lease to lease first.
I have leased so far:
nissan leaf EV
2 x toyota RAV4EV
2 x Chevy Bolt.
Each time there was a better model available for less at end of Lease.
Last year I decided that at that time the Chevy Bolt EUV ticked all my requirements and I bought one.
I certainly hope to be able to drive till the wheels fall off.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
EV sales are still up, year over year, but the RATE of increase is leveling off. This information what is known as "propaganda". EV sales have not continued to double year over year, thus the EV market is done, nobody is going to buy them. Propaganda is when you show only the facts that support your argument in a way that supports your argument.
All car sales are down a bit, EV sales have leveled off, but as a percentage of overall sales, not so much. Part of this is just the car market in general. Another part is the tech shift. New models of vehicles create new buzz, and there was a glut of EV inventory. Keeping in mind "time on the lot" for EV's has gone from literally hours late last year with dealers offering no discounts, and charging full retail plus fees, ... to having something on the lot you can actually test drive and maybe buy. You can't take 6 months of sales data in the auto market and conclude anything, it's ludicrous.
The big issue now is the full adoption of NACS by all the manufacturers. While CCS is not going away next week, All the 2025 model vehicles will be equiped with the NACS plug. Anyone interested in buying an EV today is going to be looking at an adapter for fast charging, and next year you will need to buy a NACS home charger for AC charging. So if you are thinking you want an EV today, and maybe another one in 3 years, you have to deal with changing out chargers or futzing with adapters.
The Tesla station to CCS vehicle adaptors are just now becoming available. Further, it will take some time for EA/EVGO/CP to get the additional infrastructure to simplify fast charging. This creates aprehension in the markets which will dissapate as everyone figures it out.
Bob B
Emperor Of Solar
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I think the tax credit can now be transferred to the dealer in order to reduce the sticker price .... not sure of the details of that .....gotta do some research.
I was thinking about looking for one of the high end Bolt premier EUV's that had a buy back and see if the dealer could use the tax credit that way.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
Once again we make statements with no receipts. I asked! As I stated amail trucks drive 30-50 odd miles a day, assuming the worst case 50*365 = 18250. I get it maths are a bitch.
You have such a hard-on against EV's it's stunning. You say "don't read propagana media", then you reference it. Today's battery technology (jeeze just read the battery discussions on this forum) and manufacturing techniques bear little resemblance to that of just 5 years ago. It's the same thing the greenies do when they bash cars as polluters, you just fall into the same trap. In 1970 cars created massive pollution. Today's cars produce less than 1/10th of the pollution of one built in 1970. You can't grab data for producing batteries 10 years ago and compare it to Musk's giga-factory. When you do that your argument becomes religous. Thermal runaway used to be a significant problem, improvements in chemistry and BMC's have drastically mitigated the risk. Is there still risk? Of course, it's just not as significant as it was just a few short years ago.
Sheesh. I think I'll have a cigarette while I fill up my gas tank.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
I am far from rich. I received no subsidy for either of my EV's, (they were both used).
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
My father had a souped up cart. Topped out around 30. A little scary actually
.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
We don't have enough dead batteries yet. It's coming, there is a place in New Zealand (?) working on replacement battery packs for Leafs, the longest running production EV. Without much current demand most of the battery rebuild has been around recycling the viable cells from existing dead packs. You can buy these cells on Ebay today. So the Leaf has been around since 2012, that's 12 years, and we are just starting to see a nascent replacement battery industry appear. Tesla batteries are not far behind, there will be more third party folks rebuilding packs, and the prices will fall but it's still a few years away. In the mean time the battery cost/availability criticism is valid.
JWLV
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You have a great point. Driving a Tesla is unlike driving any other car, EV or ICE or otherwise. Without giving a renter a brief rundown of how to do things in a Tesla, most people would not even know how to put it in park, or turn on the wipers, or even open the door. Hertz was trying to do good, but Tesla was not the right choice for them in my opinion. If they went with a Kia or Chevy EV, which is much more like driving a regular ICE vehicle, they probably would have done better. I know that Tesla made custom software for Hertz so that the Hertz mothership can have more control over their fleet. For example, Hertz can limit the maximum speed or enable/disable keys remotely. Tesla must have gave one hell of a presentation to woo the top execs at Hertz. I'm not aware if Kia, Chevy, or any other manufacturers making custom software for Hertz. And given that many renters are unfamiliar with Teslas, accidents happen more often and Tesla repairs are notoriously expensive, even for minor things. It's not a surprise that they lost money on the deal.
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OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
or see where the Hertz EV's are going to auction - if they are selling off a significant number, maybe you can pick one up for low cost, and low mileage?
JWLV
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@Delmar I am selling my 2012 Leaf for $4000. Battery is still decent at about 60-70 miles per charge. But I'm in Las Vegas which is about 700 miles from El Paso. South Texas is probably double that distance. I've never transported a car before. What does it generally cost to haul a car over, say 1000 miles?
JWLV
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A lot of people would never buy a car outright. They would always lease. For me, personally, I would never lease. There are pro's and con's to each opinion. But that's a completely different conversation.
No.
Electric car demand plunges across Europe
By Paul Homewood h/t Philip Bratby The car of the future!! Electric car sales plummeted across Europe last month as demand dried up despite the EU’s push to ban petrol and diesel vehi…
notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com
The current EV ownership profiles are reflected in the oligarchic elite owners are that they are:
- Highly educated.
- Highly compensated.
- Multi-car families.
- Low mileage requirements for the families’ second car, i.e., the EV.
- Reside in a “temperate” climate like CA or FL. Almost 40% of EVs are in CA, and CA has 6 times as many EVs as FL.
- Many are single-car owners,
- Most of the potential car buyers are not as highly educated.
- Nor as highly compensated as the elite EV owners.
- Mandating a change to EV ownership and forced austerity, may face a rebellion from those that need affordable vehicle transportation.
- Hertz, previously an eager early adopter of fleet electrification, announced a big sell-off of EVs.
- Ford’s electric vehicle business lost nearly $4.7 billion in 2023 and could lose another $5 billion in 2024; thus, Ford slashed EV production, having earlier pulled back on planned battery factories.
- Unsold new EVs are piling up on dealer lots, spurring aggressive discounting.
- “No one wants to buy used EVs,” as Fortune reports, leaving EV used-car values in free fall.
1 – By law, the credit in the Inflation Reduction Act is supposedly available only when purchasing vehicles built with materials sourced primarily in the U.S.
2 – However, nearly all battery materials are currently foreign-made and will remain so for ages.
3 – An Inflation Reduction Act exception allowing credit for leased vehicles built with foreign materials. Evidently, the pen is mightier than the miner.
4 – Thus, leasing has soared to over half of all EV sales in America, as leasing is the only way to capture the federal $7,500 tax credit for most EVs.
The American government provides incentives and tax deductions to transition society to EVs, but those incentives are financial incentives for the continuation of Child Labor and Ecological Destruction “Elsewhere.” Is it ethical and moral to provide financial support to developing countries that are mining for exotic minerals and metals to build EV batteries for Americans?
The putative EV revolution is stalling for three main reasons, and not because of “dead robots” or the other road bumps in recent news. What will happen is that:
- We’ll run out of money to subsidize the common folk,
- We’ll run out of copper and other foreign-sourced special metals.
- Car drivers will run out of patience in putting up with inconveniences.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
Your question got me curious and in response to your question I found this site that gave me some perspective on how much one oil company received in subsidies:
Since 2000 Exxon Mobil has received over $5 billion in subsidies.
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OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
People have been through a lot in the last few years, a pandemic, jobs affected, then we got past the pandemic but supply chains continued to be an issue, then inflationary pressures, rising interest rates and world political unrest/tensions.
It is unsurprising that sales of an expensive new technology during such times is less that steller under the circumstances.
I considered the F-150 Lightning but between the price and the pouch cells, decided I can wait. In my own case the delay is not so much a lack of faith in the current EV technology as a desire to get the best bang for my buck and being in a position where I don't need to rush it, so won't. I bet I am not alone in this thinking.
It is unsurprising that sales of an expensive new technology during such times is less that steller under the circumstances.
I considered the F-150 Lightning but between the price and the pouch cells, decided I can wait. In my own case the delay is not so much a lack of faith in the current EV technology as a desire to get the best bang for my buck and being in a position where I don't need to rush it, so won't. I bet I am not alone in this thinking.
JWLV
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YIKES!!! That's a lot of clams for just one company and not for an entire industry.
JWLV
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As stated by aenyc previously, EVs are primarily purchased by the highly educated and highly compensated. As such, a highly educated person should know that inflation is high right now. Interest rates are high. Some of the hardships with the recent pandemic is still fresh on people's minds. Buying a second vehicle (EV) with a premium price tag is probably not the best idea right now. It's not surprising that EV sales are slumping right now given who the likely demographics are.
For me personally, I bought two Tesla Model 3's this year (one for me, one for the missus). Both are used 2022, one with 81k miles and the other with 72k miles. In ICE vehicles, that may seem like a lot of miles. In the case of these two specific Teslas, I calculated that the vehicles lost only about 5% and 6% battery capacity due to degradation. The price I paid for the two vehicles was the equivalent to one new 2024 Model 3. I got $4000 tax credit at the point of sale for one, and one without any tax credit. You can only claim one tax credit every 3 years. I financed both of them at 7.99% interest for 5 years. I'm very happy with the decision and knowing that EVs require very little maintenance and that I can charge up my vehicles with my off grid solar system.
For me personally, I bought two Tesla Model 3's this year (one for me, one for the missus). Both are used 2022, one with 81k miles and the other with 72k miles. In ICE vehicles, that may seem like a lot of miles. In the case of these two specific Teslas, I calculated that the vehicles lost only about 5% and 6% battery capacity due to degradation. The price I paid for the two vehicles was the equivalent to one new 2024 Model 3. I got $4000 tax credit at the point of sale for one, and one without any tax credit. You can only claim one tax credit every 3 years. I financed both of them at 7.99% interest for 5 years. I'm very happy with the decision and knowing that EVs require very little maintenance and that I can charge up my vehicles with my off grid solar system.
teal95
Solar Enthusiast
ICE can also be expensive to repair and easily totaled. My son hit a deer with his car. Insurance totaled it because the headlight pushed back far enough to crack the fuse box. There is no disconnect so the entire wiring harness would have to be replaced. IIRC it was $2k for the wiring harness and $6k for labor.
