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Overpaneling advice

Dinobot248

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Another newbie question.


I’m in the Midwest (Ohio). I have a pecron E2000LFP. Will be installing my dual eg4 6500 and battery bank over the course of a few weeks.

Quick specs on E2000LFP
2kwh battery
2k inverter
4k surge
Dual mppt 1200w max (really 2 x 600w max)

My yard is full of trees and shade on both sides. Yard is oriented north to south.

I have 12 x 170w panels = 2,000w (3p then 2s for each mppt)
I don’t get / hit the max 1200w mppt limit until lunchtime and early afternoon assuming there is enough sun.

During the day, I connect two window inverter AC and a fridge. I know they can trip / overload the solar generator but I turn on one AC via Wi-Fi when I can and not both. So far it’s working to put the extra collected energy to work.

My understanding is that the mppt controller will stop / won’t let the energy flow after 1200w and in theory solar panels are able to endure / dissipate the extra energy.

Hopefully this setup won’t cause long term damage. Any advice is welcome.
 
Links to manuals help.

For 6 panels with two in series and then 3 groups of 2 in parallel is referred to as 2S3P.

Generally speaking, you're understanding is correct. As long as you're not exceeding Voc at the temperatures of the record low for your area, and you're not over any PV input current limits, you should be good.
 
Another newbie question.


I’m in the Midwest (Ohio). I have a pecron E2000LFP. Will be installing my dual eg4 6500 and battery bank over the course of a few weeks.

Quick specs on E2000LFP
2kwh battery
2k inverter
4k surge
Dual mppt 1200w max (really 2 x 600w max)

My yard is full of trees and shade on both sides. Yard is oriented north to south.

I have 12 x 170w panels = 2,000w (3p then 2s for each mppt)
I don’t get / hit the max 1200w mppt limit until lunchtime and early afternoon assuming there is enough sun.

During the day, I connect two window inverter AC and a fridge. I know they can trip / overload the solar generator but I turn on one AC via Wi-Fi when I can and not both. So far it’s working to put the extra collected energy to work.

My understanding is that the mppt controller will stop / won’t let the energy flow after 1200w and in theory solar panels are able to endure / dissipate the extra energy.

Hopefully this setup won’t cause long term damage. Any advice is welcome.

Have not over-paneled my solar system, but if looking for information click on Resources at top of web page of this forum for lots of good information that is searchable.

The attached Over-paneling document is available there and well written by FilterGuy.

Of course lots of over-paneling info and other searchable information available in the threads by clicking Search at the top of the web page.

Hope it helps...
 

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I found a web page for the PECRON E2000LFP power station.
The two solar inputs are rated for 32 to 95 volts and 15 amps max each.

What are the VOC and ISC specs for your 170 watt solar panels?

You want the VOC voltage to be under 38 volts to handle the 2 in series on a 95 volt rated input. That gives you the recommended 20% safety margin for cold weather.

To be safe on the input of the MPPT, the solar panels can't exceed 15 amps total. With 3 pairs in parallel, that would be no more than 5 amps per panel. That seems a bit low for a 170 watt panel. The 170 wat panels I found on Amazon are 22 volts at 7.73 amps. Running 3 of those in parallel is well over 20 amps and that could fry the MPPT input of the power station. Check your panel ratings to be sure. The ISC current should not exceed 15 amps on each input.
 
Thanks for being thorough.

The 170w panels are about 20v x 8.3A

I typed it wrong since I don’t know the actual nomenclature of indicating what is in series and what is in parallel. It is 3 panels in series and another 3 panels in series. Those two set of 3 are then connected in parallel.

Approx output is 60v 16.6A in the rare occasion I get full sun.

I just took down the E2000LFP setup today and am testing the EG4 6500 with a single 48v Lifepower4 battery. The battery rack is on back order and I have not setup my cement board wall yet.
 
...

My understanding is that the mppt controller will stop / won’t let the energy flow after 1200w and in theory solar panels are able to endure / dissipate the extra energy.

Hopefully this setup won’t cause long term damage. Any advice is welcome.
Sorry to make a point but it needs to be understood that solar panels do not endure or dissipate extra energy. Without loads they just sit in the Sun like any other object with the exception that they create a voltage potential This is referred to as Voc or Volts open cell. In order to have any power flowing the SCC loads them by either charging a battery or supplying to other items. Note the SCC job is to charge a battery so if the battery is charged it does not draw anything from the panels. During no draw times you have all the panels doing not much at all.

Why is that important? Well since the topic is over paneling you must first know when you have it. For instance if your SCC can charge a 12vDC battery at 20 amps. This is ~240w depending on voltage. If you have 400w worth of panels than you are over paneled. What happens is the SCC can only draw up to 240w. It is like having a 60w light bulb in your home plugged into a 15 a circuit. The bulb has available to it 120vAC X 15 amp = 1800w. The extra wattage available of the circuit is not dissipated, nor is it clipped, or any of many other misleading descriptive things. It simply is not utilized.

The one true issue of over paneling is how long of time that your SCC can draw that full amp rating from the panels without damaging it. The manufacturers will give an amount they think is safe or they will give an amp rating per PV circuit.
 
For instance if your SCC can charge a 12vDC battery at 20 amps. This is ~240w depending on voltage. If you have 400w worth of panels than you are over paneled. What happens is the SCC can only draw up to 240w. It is like having a 60w light bulb in your home plugged into a 15 a circuit. The bulb has available to it 120vAC X 15 amp = 1800w. The extra wattage available of the circuit is not dissipated, nor is it clipped, or any of many other misleading descriptive things. It simply is not utilized.
In the case of cheap MPPT controllers, this is not completely true.

Good smart MPPT controllers will certainly limit the input current to their maximum rating without a problem, but cheaper controllers are not always so well behaved. If the MPPT manufacturer lists a maximum ISC input current, you should obey it.

The way MPPT works in by searching for the maximum power. If increasing the current creates more power, the MPPT search may try increasing current even more. If the power went up again, it might step the current up again. It is possible that the MPPT input will search right up to burning out components. The processor is not commanding an input current, it is commanding an input duty cycle for the mosfet switch of the DC to DC converter circuit. A well behaved MPPT circuit will know if the current is close to it's safe maximum, and know to not increase the duty cycle much more, even if a current is still producing more power. But that programming is not easy. Victron, Midnight Solar, and Outback all do it very well. But many cheaper ones will fry themselves if the input current is too high. They can't react fast enough to an over current situation to prevent damage. The better units that are rated for 40 amps in probably use 60 amps FET's and when a single pulse of the DC to DC converter goes too high (above the 40 amp rating), it can set the next pulse shorter to be safe. But my cheap 40 amp MPPT controller has a warning in the manual to ensure the ISC of the solar panels can't exceed 40 amps or the total PV watts in can't exceed 40 amps into the battery voltage. It has no programmable current limiting and depends on the solar panels just not being able to overpower the electronics.
 
In the case of cheap MPPT controllers, this is not completely true.

Good smart MPPT controllers will certainly limit the input current to their maximum rating without a problem, but cheaper controllers are not always so well behaved. If the MPPT manufacturer lists a maximum ISC input current, you should obey it.

The way MPPT works in by searching for the maximum power. If increasing the current creates more power, the MPPT search may try increasing current even more. If the power went up again, it might step the current up again. It is possible that the MPPT input will search right up to burning out components. The processor is not commanding an input current, it is commanding an input duty cycle for the mosfet switch of the DC to DC converter circuit. A well behaved MPPT circuit will know if the current is close to it's safe maximum, and know to not increase the duty cycle much more, even if a current is still producing more power. But that programming is not easy. Victron, Midnight Solar, and Outback all do it very well. But many cheaper ones will fry themselves if the input current is too high. They can't react fast enough to an over current situation to prevent damage. The better units that are rated for 40 amps in probably use 60 amps FET's and when a single pulse of the DC to DC converter goes too high (above the 40 amp rating), it can set the next pulse shorter to be safe. But my cheap 40 amp MPPT controller has a warning in the manual to ensure the ISC of the solar panels can't exceed 40 amps or the total PV watts in can't exceed 40 amps into the battery voltage. It has no programmable current limiting and depends on the solar panels just not being able to overpower the electronics.
Sorry, but your understanding lacks the fact that a SCC can not increase loading without somewhere to send loading. Current is drawn not sent. Yes it attempts to find the maximum power point. However that is only up to the max charge current and not beyond (This might be a few amps either side of rating). It really is not a matter of cheap versus expensive charge controllers in that way. It is more matter of duty cycle rated components.

Loads drive supply not the other way around.

ETA: I can adjust my charge amount from PV on the AIO I use. If some nonsense concerning cheap mppt SCC was at play this should blow it up. Does not seem to though.
 
I typed it wrong since I don’t know the actual nomenclature of indicating what is in series and what is in parallel. It is 3 panels in series and another 3 panels in series. Those two set of 3 are then connected in parallel.
That would be 3s2p in nomenclature.

As I understand it, if it can only take up to 15a then wouldn't it just try to work with the 60v @ 15a it has available? The panels aren't going to push in anything more than the SCC will draw so it should be fine...

Unless I'm missing something.
 
When you have multiple strings in parallel, slight shade on one string (e.g. 10% to 15% of its diode-bypassed sections) won't have much impact. But major shading like half the string not producing will cause greater loss of production than if each string had its own MPPT.

I like to parallel strings of different orientation, to get more hours at lower production. And more watts of panels on a given MPPT. But if your trees would partially shade one of them while other had full sun, would be sub-optimum. If fully shaded, not a problem because no production from that string anyway.

The 170w panels are about 20v x 8.3A

That's two numbers. We want to see Voc, Isc, Vmp, Imp. And temperature coefficient of Voc as well as your location's historical record coldest temperature, in case we want to consider closer than 15% or 20% from max limit.

In the case of cheap MPPT controllers, this is not completely true.

Good smart MPPT controllers will certainly limit the input current to their maximum rating without a problem, but cheaper controllers are not always so well behaved. If the MPPT manufacturer lists a maximum ISC input current, you should obey it.

Sorry, but your understanding lacks the fact that a SCC can not increase loading without somewhere to send loading. Current is drawn not sent.

Battery can take current, unless voltage rises above SCC setpoint. A decent MPPT ought to keep track of the current it is drawing, never exceed what it can handle. But a dumb MPPT could make a sweep to where an overpaneled array delivered more than the MPPT could handle.

The other current limit is a reverse-polarity diode on PV input, to clamp voltage if you connect PV backwards. We've seen that a few times, and the guy wonders why PV is only about 1V at the inverter. If you're going to connect it backwards, don't do so with overpaneling beyond Isc. Just leave the other strings disconnected until you've got it working with one string.
 
...


Battery can take current, unless voltage rises above SCC setpoint. A decent MPPT ought to keep track of the current it is drawing, never exceed what it can handle. But a dumb MPPT could make a sweep to where an overpaneled array delivered more than the MPPT could handle.

...
True. But the battery is not an infinite load device like grid tie. It will resist taking more current once it is charged. Yes a malfunctioning SCC could keep raising voltage to try and charge more and bad things will happen. This is not an over paneling issue however.
 
Specifically referring to the possibility that overpaneling above max Isc rating of MPPT would allow MPPT to commit Hari-Kari if so inclined. I don't know if cheap ones do. Obviously PWM would.

Separate issue, of course an SCC could over-charge battery. Somebody who makes EMP hardened inverters reported testing competitor's equipment. Some died with a surge. One didn't die, but started delivering excessive voltage which would of course cook a battery or cause BMS to disconnect.

Another SCC failure we've heard about is non-isolated models. If FET fails shorted, it delivers Voc to BMS, which fails, and battery way over-charges. (Transformer isolated buck converter is one solution.)
 
Sorry, but your understanding lacks the fact that a SCC can not increase loading without somewhere to send loading. Current is drawn not sent. Yes it attempts to find the maximum power point. However that is only up to the max charge current and not beyond (This might be a few amps either side of rating). It really is not a matter of cheap versus expensive charge controllers in that way. It is more matter of duty cycle rated components.

Loads drive supply not the other way around.

I do not want to get into a big argument here, but I have read up quite a bit on MPPT charge controllers and even looked at code to build one with an Arduino or Raspberry Pi. As a DC to DC converter, there is a definite risk of blowing up the switching components. In a perfect world, the input power from the PV solar panel would change very slowly and the MPPT would have no issue tracking it and limiting when it comes up to maximum power. And 99% of the time, it will live.

We do not live in a perfect world and MPPT code gets very complex to do it well. There is a huge trade off for tracking speed and efficiency. Let's try a worst case here. The panels are getting 50% irradiance which lowers the current from 21 amps to just 10.5 amps, but the maximum power voltage is still around 22 per panel, or 44 volts total. That is 462 wats into the 600 watt rated MPPT input. The MPPT is working great and tracking it without a problem. The switching FET into the DC to DC converter is running at maybe 70% duty to convert that to the 12 volt (actually 13 volts at about 35 amps. But now the cloud moves and the panel not only gets full direct sun, the nice white clouds around the area also reflect some light onto the panels. The available current can jump up to near the full 21 amps very quickly. The voltage also rises with the increased light. The next pulse of the DC to DC converter is still 70% duty cycle. The current into the inductor climbs much faster and can even saturate. If it saturates the coil, the current will rise even faster. This one pulse could damage the switching FET before the charge controller even sees the change in output current. Better DC to DC converter circuits get around this problem by adding another shut to measure the input inductor current and use a feed forward loop to immediately turn off the switching FET early at a safe maximum inductor current. This mode is called current controller PWM. It needs more components and costs more to build and you still need the output current measuring and feedback control.

In most circuits, yes, the load determines how much current it will draw, but an MPPT charge controller is a different beat. It is a current source into the battery. If the battery was directly connected to the solar panel, the current would be lower but the voltage would climb too high and fry the battery. The MPPT software has to work in (at least) 2 different modes. Most of the time it is hunting to pull the most power it can from the solar panels. And that is what causes the problem in this case. The cheap controllers depend on the fact that solar panels are a current source. Even if the DC to DC converter goes to 100% duty cycle, they know the circuit can handle the 15 amps rating they listed in the manual. That makes it so they don't have to bother adding circuits or writing code to limit the input current any further.

On my cheap controller, it will not even let me set the output current. It just produces all it can until the battery voltage reaches the set point. Then it will finally switch mode and adjust the duty cycle down to stop the output voltage from climbing.

The short answer here is this...

If the MPPT input lists a maximum ISC current input, DO NOT EXCEED THAT RATING.

If you wire up more panels and exceed that current rating, it may work, for months, maybe years. But all it takes is one time the sun hits the panels just right and the controller goes pop and you have no warranty because you fed it more current than it was rated for. In this case, the true current source is the solar panels. And they are a CURRENT SOURCE. If they say they can put out 21 amps and the input is only rated for 16 amps maximum, you are likely to have a problem. Connect the panels to a resistor, and you will see the current climb directly with the amount of light hitting the panels, up until you exceed the VMP voltage. On the flip side, if you change the resistor value, (the load) the voltage will change a lot, but the current will change very little. That is a current source, not a voltage source, and the whole reason we need MPPT control to find the peak power.

Yes, a Victron charge controller will happily current limit all day long while over paneled. So will Enphase inverters. But even these list a maximum safe ISC current. But it is typically much higher. In the case of this particular PECRON power station, it is rated up to 16 amps. That hits the maximum 600 watts at just 37.5 volts, even though it can handle 95 volts. So yes, you can safely over panel it by more than double. But keep the total ISC current below 16 amps.

I will not reply about this again. If you want to do it and it goes up in smoke in a few weeks, it's not my fault.
 
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