Plug and play kit - shed

[fakdaddy]

Hi

anyone have recommendations for a mostly plug and play kit - for a shed.
to support the normal ....... lighting / low amp led
but mostly power tools ...... direct and chargers for battery chargers.

So its possible to have 2x 15A circuits dedicated on at a time plus lights. (eg Fan and powertool).

rough calcs put that at 4000A peak ........ but maybe 5kw would be safer.


These dont have good reviews.

https://tinyurl.com/4ved5mme

 

[robbob2112]

I have the 2000w version of the inverter, it is fine. The built in charger is a plus if you want to use it in UPS mode. But for that price you can get victron or other LF inverter.

You can get much better prices on the batteries than that.

You can get much better panels with higher voltage/wattage/efficiency.

Basically I am saying build your own system from scratch verse what you can get on amazon. It isn't hard and unlike the plug and play kit you can troubleshoot it because you understand how it is put together. There are many build on here from people adding power to a shed.

Here is a similar one to review.

Review my system please

Alright I'm a decent fellow. But I'm not good at everything. Well, I suck at solar power. This is my third attempt to build a solar power for my cabin. My first two attempts busted and I couldn't figure out how to fix it. I figure after these two attempts and the subsequent attempts at repair...

diysolarforum.com

And, building yourself verse plug-n-play you can generally save 1/2 or so off the cost and it will be right-sized for your use and better quality.

First step - an energy audit - list all devices and their wattage and if they are inductive *power tools* And figure out how many will be running at once. Then figure out how long you want them to run.

This will give you required inverter size and battery size. From that you can figure required solar panel size - my rough estimate is 5x the battery size. That will give you how many panels and what voltage/current you need from a MPPT to recharge the batteries in 5 hours.


You will want a LF inverter that is rated for a good duration of surge capacity when you start power tools. The HF have only a few seconds at most of surge capacity to double the rated wattage. The LF will typically have a 3x surge capacity for 30 seconds or more.


Once you have the inverter size you can just read in the manual about required wire and fuses or it can be figured very easy.


This is my UPS system - I do have a different MPPT than the one shown, but the one shown is not in any way bad.

The drawing was made in drawio in about 10 minutes - you can watch a youtub video to learn basics in about 15 minutes.


For you, you will want to replace the battery with multiple and the inverter with one that suits you.

Doesn't matter if it is DIY or kit form, you will end up bolting together.

 

[fakdaddy]

Thanks.
I did a much smaller system but very similar wiring to this for my old smaller shed - no 110V - just 12v for exeternal lighting.
are there brans you recommend as good quality ?

How do most people run their 110V from the invertor. ideally like a fused circuit for each run ...... not a bunch of extension chord/adapters comming from the single invertor etc.

 

[Louis_8]

Great to see you have experience with a smaller off grid setup. For an off grid system, there are a few reputable manufacturers you can consider for each of the components I will describe. The battery is the absolute heart of the system and one of the biggest decisions you will make. Rolls Surrette, Sonnenschein, Trojan are a few that have been very reliable. I have no reason to use any others. The voltages of many of the other top batteries are simply not compatible with off grid applications. 110V wiring will come right off your inverter. If you are keeping this in a barn, the wiring runs should be as clean and safe as possible. For 110VAC, a subpanel works really well. Each circuited run off the panel should be protected by its own breaker. This will require a bit more wire, but it will allow you a fused circuit for each run. It is the safer and correct way to distribute power. Also, as long as you are using a switch to control your backup generator, it is pretty easy to arrange an auto transfer system that will switch you from the inverter to the generator without killing the grid attached house. It is very easy. Just remember, this is not something to save money on. Find a local electrician that has a good bit of experience. They are typically good guys with a lot of talent in this type of project. After the system is installed, the electrician should be able to help you label the circuit breakers and possibly help you design a wiring diagram. Odds are, they will know how to select the necessary components to do all this.

 

[robbob2112]

For me the inverter to plug is because I have computers to plug in.

The expert power has screw terminals to use 120vac and wire to a device. Most inverters in the wattage range you want will be direct wire so you would run wires in conduit. To a standard small panel with breakers. From there to outlets.

Something like this for your wall.

Victron 12V Quattro-II 3kVA 2x120V Inverter 120A Charger | Current Connected

Upgrade to a Victron Quattro-II 12V inverter/charger. PowerControl, PowerAssist, LiFePO4 compatible. Reliable & efficient for 120/240VAC split-phase setups.

www.currentconnected.com

This SCC - size determined by needed usage - can be other brands

Victron SmartSolar Charge Controller - MPPT VE.Direct | Current Connected

Optimize solar energy harvest and extend battery life with the SmartSolar Charge Controller. Remote monitoring and intelligent battery management included.

www.currentconnected.com

I would probably go with 24v verse 12v were it me. The cables are smaller and the current involved is less. If you think you want more than 3000w I would go to 48v.

When you buy batteries it is always best to buy the voltage battery you need verse stringing them in series to get the voltage you need.

 

[robbob2112]

Also, as long as you are using a switch to control your backup generator, it is pretty easy to arrange an auto transfer system that will switch you from the inverter to the generator without killing the grid attached house. It is very easy. Just remember, this is not something to save money on. Find a local electrician that has a good bit of experience. They are typically good guys with a lot of talent in this type of project. After the system is installed, the electrician should be able to help you label the circuit breakers and possibly help you design a wiring diagram. Odds are, they will know how to select the necessary components to do all this.

Rolls Surrette, Sonnenschein, Trojan - the brands you suggest are all flooded lead acid - expensive, slow charging, half the capacity wasted, must be in vented enclosure, and require regular checks and maintenance, and heavy. Reliable yes if you do the maint and don't stress them you can get 10 year, but if you don't you will get only a couple of years.

LFP (LiFePO4) batteries you can use 90% capacity, charge at much higher rates (important if you want to get a full charge from the sun in 4 hours), no venting required, and less than 1/2 the weight of lead acid, last 10~15+ years. The downside of these is they can't be charged below 32f


This is a DIY website - you are welcome to spend money on an electrician and drive up the cost, but it isn't anything complicated for this sort of thing. Nothing beyond the average person if they have ever done any kind of wiring.


i.e. if you are going to suggest an electrician to folks asking questions here you would be better off on one of the electrician boards that just tell folks to go find a local electrician.

 

[robbob2112]

Thanks.
I did a much smaller system but very similar wiring to this for my old smaller shed - no 110V - just 12v for exeternal lighting.
are there brans you recommend as good quality ?

How do most people run their 110V from the invertor. ideally like a fused circuit for each run ...... not a bunch of extension chord/adapters comming from the single invertor etc.

The brands listed are good for most people, but at the same time others like other brands - it varies by person what they like.

Whatever you do, have a complete plan before you buy anything that locks you into a certain thing.

I've used a variety of the LiTime stuff from batteries to bus bars and switches and everything so far has be top quality.

One thing to avoid is Renogy equipment - it is typically relabeled equipment and their warranty service horrible. Just search it on this site.

 

[fakdaddy]

thanks guys - what determines the battery storage ....... meaning 12.6v->52v etc
Seems like per google just based on total amp draw and charge and system, size

 

[robbob2112]

Sorry, it is a long reply - but a lot of info boiled down - ask questions and someone will answer.

The main decision on battery voltage comes down to how many amps are drawn from the battery - Most of us are of the opinion that 3000w is the highest practical wattage for a 12v system. 5000w for a 24v system. Then 48v for anything beyond.


Watts drawn by your tools/etc multiplied by the number of hours in a day you want to use them. This give you watt hours. Batteries are rated in amp hours and can be crossed into watt hours by mulitplying by voltage.

i.e. 12.8v * 100ah = 1280wh
With LFP batteries you don't want to draw below 10% ever and 20% is used as the floor by many.
1280wh * 80% = 1024 usable wh


If your tool draws 330 watts to run (110v * 3 amps) and you run divide your usable battery watt hours by that to find out how long the battery will run it.

1024wh / 330w = 3.1 hours of constant run time.

So if you assume you want 10 amps at 110v for 8 hours a day of continuous usage you are looking at 8800wh needed.

a 51.2v battery rated at 100ah can do
51.2 * 100 = 5120wh * 0.8 = 4096wh usable

4096wh * 2 = 8192wh

So you would need two of those larger batteries to run for 8 hours roughly. Or you would need 8 of the 12.8v batteries.


For solar panels you need to lookup your address and see how many hours of sunlight you get a day - i.e. Washington state will be less than Florida.

Now - for panel size - if you have full sun on a 300w panel for 5 hours you will get 1500wh out of it.

8192wh / 1500wh = 5.4 panels

Now, you won't get 100% efficent on the panels and the SCC (solar charge controller) and the sun won't shine for your house location as much as the average lists everyday. So you can figure you will need at least 20% more than you think just to break even.

5.4 * 1.2 = 6.5 panels - so call it 7 panels.

300 watt panels are fairly large (65" x 30") and they make up to 550w panels which are a bit larger than a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood. So where you are going to mount things comes into play.

Panel Rules -
Each string of panels - all panels in a string MUST face the same direction - So if you don't have room to install panels into the same plane you need to have multiple strings. i.e. some face east, some face west.

Each strings needs its own MPPT

Strings can be in series and parallel or a combo - Series voltage adds and current stays the same. Parallel current adds and voltage stays the same. It is pretty common to have series/parallel combos to get optimal current/voltage

You may NEVER exceed the voltage of your MPPT - even a few volts over will damage it. Panel voltage is measured in a lab at 25c. As heat increases voltage decreases and as it gets colder the voltage increases. So when figuring the max voltage leave at least a 10% buffer or more if you get really cold winters.

If you have more than 2 strings you need a combiner box with breakers that disconnect both poles of the panels.

Grounding - repeat this - 'there can be only one' - Your service entrance from the utility will have a ground rod - ALL other points in the electrical system MUST be tied to that one rod. If you have a independant system in your shed it will need an independant ground rod and the panel frames and the other pieces of equipment will be tied to it. If you later decide to connect to the house power you MUST disconnect the local ground rod..... When removing this rod you must remove the neutral/ground screw 'there can be only one'

The panels should have their frames connected to a grounding system. The shell of the inverter, the power panel, any other equipment with a ground screw will be connected.

 

[fakdaddy]

Sorry, it is a long reply - but a lot of info boiled down - ask questions and someone will answer.

The main decision on battery voltage comes down to how many amps are drawn from the battery - Most of us are of the opinion that 3000w is the highest practical wattage for a 12v system. 5000w for a 24v system. Then 48v for anything beyond.


Watts drawn by your tools/etc multiplied by the number of hours in a day you want to use them. This give you watt hours. Batteries are rated in amp hours and can be crossed into watt hours by mulitplying by voltage.

i.e. 12.8v * 100ah = 1280wh
With LFP batteries you don't want to draw below 10% ever and 20% is used as the floor by many.
1280wh * 80% = 1024 usable wh


If your tool draws 330 watts to run (110v * 3 amps) and you run divide your usable battery watt hours by that to find out how long the battery will run it.

1024wh / 330w = 3.1 hours of constant run time.

So if you assume you want 10 amps at 110v for 8 hours a day of continuous usage you are looking at 8800wh needed.

a 51.2v battery rated at 100ah can do
51.2 * 100 = 5120wh * 0.8 = 4096wh usable

4096wh * 2 = 8192wh

So you would need two of those larger batteries to run for 8 hours roughly.


For solar panels you need to lookup your address and see how many hours of sunlight you get a day - i.e. Washington state will be less than Florida.

Now - for panel size - if you have full sun on a 300w panel for 5 hours you will get 1500wh out of it.

8192wh / 1500wh = 5.4 panels

Now, you won't get 100% efficent on the panels and the SCC (solar charge controller) and the sun won't shine for your house location as much as the average lists everyday. So you can figure you will need at least 20% more than you think just to break even.

5.4 * 1.2 = 6.5 panels - so call it 7 panels.

300 watt panels are fairly large (65" x 30") and they make up to 550w panels which are a bit larger than a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood. So where you are going to mount things comes into play.

Panel Rules -
Each string of panels - all panels MUST face the same direction - So if you don't have room to install panels into the same plane you need to have multiple strings. i.e. some face east, some face west.

Each strings needs its own MPPT

Strings can be in series and parallel or a combo - Series voltage adds and current stays the same. Parallel current adds and voltage stays the same. It is pretty common to have series/parallel combos to get optimal current/voltage

You may NEVER exceed the voltage of your MPPT - even a few volts over will damage it. Panel voltage is measured in a lab at 25c. As heat increases voltage decreases and as it gets colder the voltage increases. So when figuring the max voltage leave at least a 10% buffer or more if you get really cold winters.

If you have more than 2 strings you need a combiner box with breakers that disconnect both poles of the panels.

Grounding - repeat this - 'there can be only one' - Your service entrance from the utility will have a ground rod - ALL other points in the electrical system MUST be tied to that one rod. If you have a independant system in your shed it will need an independant ground rod and the panel frames and the other pieces of equipment will be tied to it. If you later decide to connect to the house power you MUST disconnect the local ground rod..... When removing this rod you must remove the neutral/ground screw 'there can be only one'

The panels should have their frames connected to a grounding system. The shell of the inverter, the power panel, any other equipment with a ground screw will be connected.

awesome response. thx for the detail and time.

 

[robbob2112]

awesome response. thx for the detail and time.

Anytime -

note - ALL DC wires inside any structure MUST be inside metal conduit. Metal if attached to structure. Plastic is OK for burial or when not attached to the structure itself. On the roof must be metal conduit because of the heat.

When you get to the stage of actually drawing out a diagram in drawio we can talk about fuses - there are many types and styles and the usage of the different ones varies with your situation.

 

[fakdaddy]

 

[robbob2112]

Oh,

Go here to get the estimate for your hours per day of usage

PVWatts

Estimates the energy production and cost of energy of grid-connected photovoltaic (PV) energy systems throughout the world. It allows homeowners, small building owners, installers and manufacturers to easily develop estimates of the performance of potential PV installations

pvwatts.nrel.gov

plug in 1k for the panel amount and it will tell you what watts to expect

One thing on energy audit - most tools don't run constantly... I would be willing to guess unless it is a sander it runs only 20% or less of the time depending on the tool

You can use that as a scaling factor to figure out the required number of panels. - here is my result - basically I can expect 4hrs in winter an 6 hours in summer of sun....

 

[OffGridForGood]

A few comments to add:
Shed = non conditioned space? but not sure of your location...ie here is what you Need to know: Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries are far superior to Lead-Acid in nearly every measure but one: subfreezing temperatures. LFP must be protected from below freezing or excessively hot temps.

Some LFP batteries have communications for monitoring or close-loop communications with supporting inverters. Know what you need and don't spend money on things you don't need. For a simple shed project likely you don't need.

Quality equipment generally costs more, but grid-tied equipment costs more due to more features, if you don't need those features (offgrid shed) then be sure you aren't paying for features you don't plan to use.

Tier one equipment may not be what you require, and for about half the cost you can get something perfectly suitable for your needs. I suggest reading over the forum and get an idea of real world experiences members have had with the various models before laying down your own money. Reseach online is free, just takes some time.

Budget - if you set a budget value you would like to work with, we can make suggestions to fit.

 

[Brucey]

For me the inverter to plug is because I have computers to plug in.

The expert power has screw terminals to use 120vac and wire to a device. Most inverters in the wattage range you want will be direct wire so you would run wires in conduit. To a standard small panel with breakers. From there to outlets.

Something like this for your wall.

Victron 12V Quattro-II 3kVA 2x120V Inverter 120A Charger | Current Connected

Upgrade to a Victron Quattro-II 12V inverter/charger. PowerControl, PowerAssist, LiFePO4 compatible. Reliable & efficient for 120/240VAC split-phase setups.

www.currentconnected.com

This SCC - size determined by needed usage - can be other brands

Victron SmartSolar Charge Controller - MPPT VE.Direct | Current Connected

Optimize solar energy harvest and extend battery life with the SmartSolar Charge Controller. Remote monitoring and intelligent battery management included.

www.currentconnected.com

I would probably go with 24v verse 12v were it me. The cables are smaller and the current involved is less. If you think you want more than 3000w I would go to 48v.

When you buy batteries it is always best to buy the voltage battery you need verse stringing them in series to get the voltage you need.

Just watch out there you prob meant to link this one, the 2x120V model being designed for RVs:

Victron 12V MultiPlus 3kVA 120A Inverter/Charger | Current Connected

Efficiency meets versatility with the Victron MultiPlus 12V 3kVA. Take control of your energy storage and management system with ease.

www.currentconnected.com

 

[robbob2112]

Just watch out there you prob meant to link this one, the 2x120V model being designed for RVs:

Victron 12V MultiPlus 3kVA 120A Inverter/Charger | Current Connected

Efficiency meets versatility with the Victron MultiPlus 12V 3kVA. Take control of your energy storage and management system with ease.

www.currentconnected.com

Or this one

Victron 12V MultiPlus-II 3kVA 120V Inverter - 120A Charger | Current Connected

Unlock the power of the 12V MultiPlus-II 120V Inverter - a versatile inverter with adaptive charging and seamless transition capabilities.

www.currentconnected.com

So many models so little time.

 

[OffGridForGood]

A super easy "plug and play" solution - will output about 20A 120v that I can recommend (because I use one)
MPP Solar 2724 - available from Watts247 (or Maximum solar dot online)
Any of the various Powerqueen/LiTime/AmperTime 24v 200 Ah ready-made LFP batteries, and get a decent fuse like the Mega for the pos.
Two 400W solar panels - find a local supplier to save costs of shipping the oversized item, or buy some used panels.

The MPP has four outlets built right into the inverter - hang it on the wall and plug right into the side, wire up the solar and the battery your are literally done in minutes not hours. The inverter comes with a short cable for battery connection, and the PV inputs are MC-4 ready for the PV no wires to strip and no terminals to tighten. Budget friendly and quite literally Plug-and-Play.

I can say one of these units with at least 150A of battery behind it will start and run anything I own with a regular 120/15A plug on it including a chop saw or a Mig welder - but not both at the same time.

 

[fakdaddy]

A super easy "plug and play" solution - will output about 20A 120v that I can recommend (because I use one)
MPP Solar 2724 - available from Watts247 (or Maximum solar dot online)
Any of the various Powerqueen/LiTime/AmperTime 24v 200 Ah ready-made LFP batteries, and get a decent fuse like the Mega for the pos.
Two 400W solar panels - find a local supplier to save costs of shipping the oversized item, or buy some used panels.

The MPP has four outlets built right into the inverter - hang it on the wall and plug right into the side, wire up the solar and the battery your are literally done in minutes not hours. The inverter comes with a short cable for battery connection, and the PV inputs are MC-4 ready for the PV no wires to strip and no terminals to tighten. Budget friendly and quite literally Plug-and-Play.

I can say one of these units with at least 150A of battery behind it will start and run anything I own with a regular 120/15A plug on it including a chop saw or a Mig welder - but not both at the same time.

Thats actually cool. Simple.
Ties in real nice with my new thread. hmmm ...... decisions decisions.

Aware of anything that will tie into 220v (step up) easily ........ to run a compressor ......... basically 10 minutes here and there. Or welder.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Thats actually cool. Simple.
Ties in real nice with my new thread. hmmm ...... decisions decisions.

Aware of anything that will tie into 220v (step up) easily ........ to run a compressor ......... basically 10 minutes here and there. Or welder.

There are AIO units that will give you 120 and 240 (both) in one unit. The MPP LV6048 (and rebranded similar units) are capable of being set up for 120 -120 or 120-240. So does the MPP LVX6048 which is a LF inverter but has higher stand-by current, (which ultimately was the deciding factor for me to go with the LV6048 instead.)
Unlike the MPP2724, these 6kW units are 48v and do not have any outlet-plugs built into the inverter so you need to set up a small panel to control the output circuits.
In a year or two I am planning to replace my three 6048's with a pair of 12kW inverters. The three 6048's will be repurposed in mobile units capable of 120 and 240 output, and one unit will go to my cabin. I like them, but there are more options in the market today than back in 2020-21 when I started on this road, and their standby current is a bit much to power all winter.

 

[fakdaddy]

Thx.
Yeah my electric quotes are like $7500 to run the 220ft required.....and that's with me doing the dirt work.

Like the idea of solar ..... but not if it gets too crazy on wiring or on $$.

Really just need the battery charger and lights ..... and and angle grinder from time to time. I could run the welder or compressor up at the main house or from a generator for the few hours I need them every other month

 

[OffGridForGood]

Running a small Mig or Tig (with regular 15A 120 plug) is no problem from a small inverter like the 2724 - for short duration.
A stick welder is another thing entirely, requiring a large system and battery to support it.

 

[fakdaddy]

Yeah thinking for aluminum
Would be 220v @ 23A

Or a large 220v compressor

Not large durations but 10mins here 10 mins there etc

 

[OffGridForGood]

In my shop, the biggest single load is the 6Hp upright air compressor - I have measured the inrush at 72+ Amps 240v for just a half cycle and then it immediatly drops down, but that first wack with the compressor trying to pump against the tank pressure is something to behold.
It takes all three of my inverters to support that inrush load, and a minimum of 600A of battery, 200A for each inverter minimum.

 

[fakdaddy]

In my shop, the biggest single load is the 6Hp upright air compressor - I have measured the inrush at 72+ Amps 240v for just a half cycle and then it immediatly drops down, but that first wack with the compressor trying to pump against the tank pressure is something to behold.
It takes all three of my inverters to support that inrush load, and a minimum of 600A of battery, 200A for each inverter minimum.

Dang.
Lol.
Then I guess thats staying up at the house if I go solar/battery at shed.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Dang.
Lol.
Then I guess thats staying up at the house if I go solar/battery at shed.

A meter with in-rush capture is the way to go, find out what you actually need to run what your planning. I bought a Klein and I am so happy to now know what the in-rush actually is on any tool in the shop.
One night chatting with the members here, it came up in conversation - "so what is the in-rush for your well pump then" -be right back - yeah I measured 15.something amps 120v then the pump settles down to it's normal 6.something amps. (1Hp pump) This lead to another idea: since the inrush is less than 20A, will my mobile (MPP2724) run the well pump? - Did the test and yes, it does.

Two super handy tools for DIY solar - a P3 Kil-O-Watt and a digital multimeter with in-rush capture.