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powering a cabin in Colorado 120VAC only has a 3600watt outback now want upgrade

motomarc

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I am helping a friend he has a old 24v lead acid 3600 watt outback system , 2 charge controllers & 8 panels = around 2000 watts of solar panels.
He would like to upgrade to a AIO inverter and a little more wattage and of course LIFEPO4 batteries.

eg4 got rid of the 6500 120VAC unit due to issues and has no single phase 120v replacement above 3000watts.

Any recommendations for a quality product is what he is looking for something that will last and not have a issue for years.
No one wants to go to the cabin & have no power from a unit failure.

thank you for your time.
 
He can parallel two 3000 watt units. I would see about paralleling a 2nd outback inverter.
I thought about that as well.
the eg4 3k needs 120v dc to invert power to AC.
I would only use 1 unit for the solar input and charging do to DC voltage they can handle.
The other unit just tied to the100ah batteries for the extra AC power production should work fine. does this sound correct and like it would work fine.
The Sungold 5k looks like a possibility but have no clue on quality.
I told him he should have 3000watts of panels minimum to keep up with power use.
Hopefully he will want 8 or more new panels of 390watt or more. the old ones are 250 max each set of 4 is only putting 66- 88vdc
 
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To call this proposal an "upgrade" is a misnomer. I would call it a downgrade in quality and reliability.

What is actually NEEDED?
the outback is a nightmare to program:mad: way to many flipping screens of un needed crap to try and figure out.
I want easy as can be to install.
why would you say the 3 k is a downgrade I have 1 running in my store for over 1 year 0 issues.
 
the outback is a nightmare to program:mad: way to many flipping screens of un needed crap to try and figure out.

I've programmed a couple of FM80 charge controllers, and while the menus are complex, it's not that hard.

I want easy as can be to install.

So easy is more important than quality, reliabilty and efficiency? Does your friend share these priorities, i.e., "I just want something easy to program. I don't care about quality, reliability or efficiency."

why would you say the 3 k is a downgrade I have 1 running in my store for over 1 year 0 issues.

Outback is Tier-1 hardware along with Schneider, SMA, Victron, Xantrax, Samlex, Midnite Solar, etc. When someone has a system that's been running 20+ years, they're running one of these.

You may be really happy with your system, but nothing MPP Solar, Growatt, EG4, etc., makes is even remotely comparable in quality to Outback.

Does your friend have any inductive loads like well pumps or HVAC equipment? If yes, very good chance the lightweight high frequency cheapos won't be able to power them.

You're proposing replacing high end tools like Snap-on or Husky with the "single use" tools you can get for $0.50 from Harbor Freight.
 
I've programmed a couple of FM80 charge controllers, and while the menus are complex, it's not that hard.



So easy is more important than quality, reliabilty and efficiency? Does your friend share these priorities, i.e., "I just want something easy to program. I don't care about quality, reliability or efficiency."



Outback is Tier-1 hardware along with Schneider, SMA, Victron, Xantrax, Samlex, Midnite Solar, etc. When someone has a system that's been running 20+ years, they're running one of these.

You may be really happy with your system, but nothing MPP Solar, Growatt, EG4, etc., makes is even remotely comparable in quality to Outback.

Does your friend have any inductive loads like well pumps or HVAC equipment? If yes, very good chance the lightweight high frequency cheapos won't be able to power them.

You're proposing replacing high end tools like Snap-on or Husky with the "single use" tools you can get for $0.50 from Harbor Freight.
Ok what would you recommend for a inverter over the outback? with at least the 3600watts it has.
I would rather have a AIO but if we need to go with a charge controller and a separate inverter so be it..
If I new how to change the settings in the outback stuff I/E charge controller and inverter I would say get new lifepo4 24v batteries and charge controllers. yes there is a well propane instant water heater and a 120v dryer washer combo the outback has been there over 10 years.
obviously don't want crap products but budget minded and good quality.
thank you for you time
 
I would start with just a battery upgrade. Get the same capacity in LFP and there will be significantly more usable power and higher solar production.

Not sure if more wattage is needed or more stored energy.
the fm60 charge controllers are not meant for lifepo4.. at the very least a new charge controller and panels seeing how the outback has not failed as a inverter.
 
the fm60 charge controllers are not meant for lifepo4.. at the very least a new charge controller and panels seeing how the outback has not failed as a inverter.
The controllers are not programmable? I find LFP easier to program as there is no guesswork on absorption.
What is wrong with the panels? Already going to get more power late in the day running full instead of tapering into the late absorption phase of the lead-acid.
 
Ok what would you recommend for a inverter over the outback? with at least the 3600watts it has.

Another identical outback in parallel.

If I new how to change the settings in the outback stuff I/E charge controller and inverter I would say get new lifepo4 24v batteries and charge controllers.

Something to keep in mind: A thing doesn't have to say, "you can use me with lithium" to be able to use it with lithium. You simply need to confirm the device will behave acceptably for lithium. LFP is almost a drop in replacement for lead acid in many cases.

yes there is a well

This well pump would likely bring any AiO to its knees unless it's a very shallow well with a < 1hp pump.

propane instant water heater and a 120v dryer washer combo the outback has been there over 10 years.
obviously don't want crap products but budget minded and good quality.

Sorry... the first and second usually go together.

the fm60 charge controllers are not meant for lifepo4.. at the very least a new charge controller and panels seeing how the outback has not failed as a inverter.

FM60/80 are 1000% perfectly acceptable with LFP. Just disconnect the temp sensor to prevent temperature compensation or set it to -0mV.

What specific model Outback inverter?
 
I will make you a heck of a deal on a Schneider 24v inverter


ANY reasonable offer accepted for the inverter with or without the other parts.

$300 for all?

I live near Blackhawk west of Golden by 16 miles, but can meet in Golden for pickup.
 
An audit of what the "friend" has going on (in both existing equipment and in terms of power needs, and other "soft" requirements, like "I *want* something shiny/flashy", vs whatever) is advised, and out of that, an "upgrade" path might more clearly gel out ...

Otherwise, it "seems" like the path forward (from a market perspective, where sales folk tell us all that AIO's are the true path to enlightenment) is that "old" tier-1 (LF) equipment can only be replaced with more modern tier-2 AIO (HF) equipment. This is great for sales, but I'm not sure how great it is for reliability, without a bit of design work.

AIO's might indeed also be more easily programmed, but there's a crossover point where the complexity of menu choices (and the need for firmware updates & processes) might get out of hand.

Don't forget ... buy TWO of the AIO's, to improve the chance of continuity of service, unless you have some other fallback in mind.

I imagine the forklift upgrade path has its own set of costs ...
 
Another identical outback in parallel.



Something to keep in mind: A thing doesn't have to say, "you can use me with lithium" to be able to use it with lithium. You simply need to confirm the device will behave acceptably for lithium. LFP is almost a drop in replacement for lead acid in many cases.



This well pump would likely bring any AiO to its knees unless it's a very shallow well with a < 1hp pump.



Sorry... the first and second usually go together.



FM60/80 are 1000% perfectly acceptable with LFP. Just disconnect the temp sensor to prevent temperature compensation or set it to -0mV.

What specific model Outback inverter?
So if we keep the inverter and go with just batteries . I would need to know exactly how to program the fm60 for jasper Colorado daily light in the summer.
models exact #s on the outback I am not sure it was last year when I was there I think it's 3500 or 3600 watts max but man it's a big unit for such small output. guessing like you said that's the tier 1 and quality parts inside.
it has a little white controller connected to it.
the manual was insane with all the screens and settings over 300 different screens :mad: :rolleyes:(n) talk about total pain in the 🫏. this is 1 reason he wants a different unit & if I am helping I want a simpler solution as well.
again thank you for your time
 
So if we keep the inverter and go with just batteries . I would need to know exactly how to program the fm60 for jasper Colorado daily light in the summer.

Your location is irrelevant. Chargers are programmed for suitable voltages.

Absorption: 28.8V
Absorption time: 30-60 minutes
Float: 27.0V

If temp sensor is installed, disconnect it.

You will need to get batteries that have their own internal low temp charge protection.

models exact #s on the outback I am not sure it was last year when I was there

The exact model number is important for understanding if units can be paralleled and how they are programmed.

I think it's 3500 or 3600 watts max but man it's a big unit for such small output.

"big unit for a small output" is why they can handle high surge currents, and your AiO can't. They are made with high quality heavy duty components that include a large transformer.

guessing like you said that's the tier 1 and quality parts inside.
it has a little white controller connected to it.
the manual was insane with all the screens and settings over 300 different screens :mad: :rolleyes:(n) talk about total pain in the 🫏. this is 1 reason he wants a different unit & if I am helping I want a simpler solution as well.

YOU understand your own system, but you aren't familiar with its limitations OUTSIDE of your application. Pursuing your intended path may result in a system that no longer meets your friend's needs.

Outback manuals are complex because they have so many features and options well beyond your typical AiO. The basic settings are relatively simple to make.

Understanding your friends need's is important.

What problems is your friend having, i.e., how is the system not meeting his needs?
 
Your location is irrelevant. Chargers are programmed for suitable voltages.

Absorption: 28.8V
Absorption time: 30-60 minutes
Float: 27.0V

If temp sensor is installed, disconnect it.

You will need to get batteries that have their own internal low temp charge protection.



The exact model number is important for understanding if units can be paralleled and how they are programmed.



"big unit for a small output" is why they can handle high surge currents, and your AiO can't. They are made with high quality heavy duty components that include a large transformer.



YOU understand your own system, but you aren't familiar with its limitations OUTSIDE of your application. Pursuing your intended path may result in a system that no longer meets your friend's needs.

Outback manuals are complex because they have so many features and options well beyond your typical AiO. The basic settings are relatively simple to make.

Understanding your friends need's is important.

What problems is your friend having, i.e., how is the system not meeting his needs?
Biggest issue is low battery all the time he has a bank of 8, 6vdc 400ah sealed batteries at 24v..
the green light would drop to yellow in 1-2 hours with led lights on in the cabin and maybe a tv then red in another hour .

it never has managed to last through the day and night, they have to use a generator to charge at low amperage through the inverter.
online it looks like some units can do up to 80 amps charging from 120vac connection to inverter but I know his was way lower amp setting.
have to do some reading on it see if it can be changed.

needless to say for 10 years one fm60 charge controller had been set to 1 hour absorption and the other 1.5 hours at max there getting 22 amps x 2:rolleyes:(n).
not near enough time to charge them back up fully.
I would think the batteries never got a good full charge cycle for 10 years with standby power eating them back down.
I set them to 8 hours, the manufacture website said they can take 400amps for 4 hours. figured it would be fine.
he went back next week used air compressor for like 3 hours he said and everything was good green light never went yellow with just him there not 5 or 6 people.
that was when he closed the cabin up last year. not sure if he has made it back up yet.

last year I went up to help with his system.
He had a string on a array that had a bad connection and was producing nothing but 16-20vdc we got that taken care of and pretty sure was around 66-80-vdc on each string and both controllers.

So I see your point now batteries are the issue more than anything and absorption/charge time to keep batteries charged for night time.

Not having the knowledge you have, I would prefer to swap the charge controllers for Victron being so much simpler to understand and setup for the lifepo4.
I just sat here for 1 plus hour trying to understand the Mate & FM60's manuals and settings & there is just to much BS:rolleyes: and settings that is not needed it should be simpler for anyone to understand.. they have way to many setting to screw things up I want simple and more or less plug and play. .
grabbing 2x eg4, 200ah 24v lifepo4 batteries 2 Victron 150/45 or 150/35 charge controllers seems way easy vs the FM60 nightmare:mad: .
this should make it much simpler for us on changing things over.
 
The amount of PV and solar conditions determines how much energy one can use per day.
The amount of battery capacity determines how long one can go between charges.

Based on the above:

Your friend almost certainly needs more PV and to properly configure the existing charge controllers. FM-60 should be able to handle about 28V * 60A = 1680W of PV EACH.

10 year old sealed batteries almost certainly need to be replaced, particularly if there is concern that they have not been properly charged. AGM and SLA batteries generally yield about 5 years of useful life when properly maintained and cycled at no more than 50% depth of discharge.

I see no evidence that your friend needs a higher power inverter.

I have no objection to using Victron charge controllers. 😁

I would not replace any properly functioning charge controllers, but add more as needed to gain additional PV yield. As implied above, 2X FM-60 should be able to handle about 3500W vs. the 2000W currently in use.

This is the perfect time to conduct an energy audit and do a bottom up review of the system to see what is needed to meet needs. Line #1 in my signature.
 
The amount of PV and solar conditions determines how much energy one can use per day.
The amount of battery capacity determines how long one can go between charges.

Based on the above:

Your friend almost certainly needs more PV and to properly configure the existing charge controllers. FM-60 should be able to handle about 28V * 60A = 1680W of PV EACH.

10 year old sealed batteries almost certainly need to be replaced, particularly if there is concern that they have not been properly charged. AGM and SLA batteries generally yield about 5 years of useful life when properly maintained and cycled at no more than 50% depth of discharge.

I see no evidence that your friend needs a higher power inverter.

I have no objection to using Victron charge controllers. 😁

I would not replace any properly functioning charge controllers, but add more as needed to gain additional PV yield. As implied above, 2X FM-60 should be able to handle about 3500W vs. the 2000W currently in use.

This is the perfect time to conduct an energy audit and do a bottom up review of the system to see what is needed to meet needs. Line #1 in my signature.
the fm60 in 24vdc can only handle 1500watts we are looking at going with 4 x 400watt Canadian solar panels = 1600 watts over the 1500watts.
VOC would be 147volts just below VOC on charger if I can find a lower voltage panel I will use it. or is it more about the voltage not wattage ??

again thank you for your time and knowledge
 
the fm60 in 24vdc can only handle 1500watts we are looking at going with 4 x 400watt Canadian solar panels = 1600 watts over the 1500watts.

You implied you had two FM-60 and 2000W of solar. As it stands, the two FM-60 are under utilized.

VOC would be 147volts just below VOC on charger if I can find a lower voltage panel I will use it. or is it more about the voltage not wattage ??

Completely unacceptable. I assume you're putting all four in series. If that's the case, they need to be 2S2P.

The quoted wattage is their maximum output power based on 60A @ battery voltage. You can have more than that on the input.
 
Biggest issue is low battery all the time he has a bank of 8, 6vdc 400ah sealed batteries at 24v..
the green light would drop to yellow in 1-2 hours with led lights on in the cabin and maybe a tv then red in another hour .
This is central to why you are having a problem. First, they are AGMs, which I think suck, and are really a poor choice for a long-lasting system. Secondly, and more importantly, you have 800Amphours of battery. An AGM wants charging at up to 0.2C (check the brand's specs), so 800Ah X 0.2C = 160Amps. At best, 2000W of panels, starting to charge at 25V, could get 2000W/25V= 80A, which is more likely to be just 80A X 85% = 68A in the real world.

Basically poor design with the selection of the wrong components.

You can upgrade to Li, but a set of quality lead-acid replacements would also be a good fit if you get a second controller and at least doubled the solar. For my own 24V system, I'm using these Rolls batteries with zero problems, even in December. https://www.rollsbattery.com/battery/8-cs-17p/
 

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