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diy solar

Recommend non-Daly BMS for 200A?

Alterative could be active Balancer with Bluetooth, but they are expensive ($80)
Work great.

Cheaper is the lowest amp smart BMS you can find that have BT.
If it's just for cell monitoring.

Capacity monitoring, an AMmeter with a shunt will help you out.
Something like this is about $15
 
Personally I would NOT waist my money on that one.
No communication what so ever.

Hidance does the "same" (show Battery icon full/empty) but also have BT and app, that gives detailed information about charge capacity and usage.
For 1/4 of the Amazon price..

(Probably also available on Amazon for +/- $25)

Good one.. Victron smart shunt $200,-
 
I am counting on bms to keep cells balanced. Want smart bms to enable custom configuration and easy cell monitoring. I intend to install this for easy SOC, current, etc monitoring
When you want to pull >200 amps via an average (and non-Daly) BMS with BT and PC connection this is limited by the internal contactor.
Most BMS systems are limited at around 120-150 amps.
In this case you would better use a external contactor or power relais of 200-500 amps, and connect this on to the BMS P- and battery [+].
The 123Smart BMS works like this, and the 123Smart BMS app is quite simple, and clear to use.
 
@Theo74 thank you for this link.
To me it looks a lot like Batrium, with matching price class.

S16 setup is about €900
In case of budget concerns you could then use a simple little BMS, and connect an external contactor or power relay on to the P- of the BMS and the main [+] of the battery. The contactor or power relay switch contact is connected directly on to the main [+] of the battery.
When the internal BMS contactor is triggered by it’s safety settings, P- shuts off, and the relay then shuts off, cutting the main [+] of the battery.
The only thing what is not managed in this way, is your maximum load en charge current. You can arrange this via a separate battery protector.
Together with a smart shunt you can set en view the load and charge currents, as well as the battery capacity status.
 
In case of budget concerns you could then use a simple little BMS, and connect an external contactor or power relay on to the P- of the BMS and the main [+] of the battery. The contactor or power relay switch contact is connected directly on to the main [+] of the battery.
When the internal BMS contactor is triggered by it’s safety settings, P- shuts off, and the relay then shuts off, cutting the main [+] of the battery.
The only thing what is not managed in this way, is your maximum load en charge current. You can arrange this via a separate battery protector.
Together with a smart shunt you can set en view the load and charge currents, as well as the battery capacity status.
Yes, I've written regular about this.
20A split port Daly BMS, that would control the Contactors.
Other down side is the balance.
At higher amperage a the 0.08A isn't going to help much.

You kind-of get what you pay for.
Batrium / 123 smart BMS are high-end, with matching pricetag.

The bulk $100 for +100A from our Chinese friends aren't a real option, if you look for quality.

Higher end contactor is already 175,- for 400A
This 50A model is about $125 on mouser/ Digikey.

If just one quality switching part cost already more then the whole solution our Chinese friends offer...
Not the best quality.

Chargery is one of the better, where you need to purchase separate Contactors. (Cheaper Chinese are about 1/3 of the price)
images (25).jpeg
 
When pulling and charging high amps, cell balance can be mandatory, although this should n’t be a to big issue when your cells are matched, top-balanced, and in good condition. But in this case an active cell balancer with higher correction currents is often used to cover this issue.

Good quality contactors, or power relays cost a bit. Not only a small operation current is preferred, bur also operational reliability. And then, like some BMS systems, China made quality is not always the first choice.
 
@fhorst, @jspencerg: This is all very new to me so forgive me if I'm off track - but could worst case for @jspencerg be something like:
3kw (typ 2kw inverter peak) * 10.5v (low V cut-off) / 0.85 = 336A ???
With that, could this be an option at Heltec (4s):​


I too am looking for All-In-One BMS for :: 48V 4400W backup Inverter using 16S 280Ah LiFeO4 (no solar).
Calc for my worst case (use Magnum surge spec): 8500w 5s / 48v = 213A (suggesting I could squeak by w/ 200A?)​
OPTIONS ??
I'm looking for Smart (if that's where I get the ability to program fig's), Bluetooth, Active Balance (who knows what I'll have w/ new REPT cells coming next mo) (sorry I can't seem to get the links below to be selectable...)

Daly: Thanks all for sharing, I think I'm going to check the others even if it takes more digging​
Overkill: I really wish I could go with the Overkill 48v 100A, but think it's a stretch (Overkill advised limit is 280A <10s). The only I understand to use 2 Overkills if if I do parallel cells, and I've already ordered 16 cells for 48V (want inverter to be at 48v for the 4.4kw).​
ElectroDacus: I like the benefit of voltage vs current method to control, but not sure if it will shut off my Magnum inverter w/o connectivity, and seems so DIY?​
Heltech (16s): Not sure if there are any BT or adjustable? Busbars look solid.​
QUCC & JBD (16s): Apparently both have a relay switch you guys are discussing above? Could this be a solution for at least for my case?​
 
Surge specifications aren't normally used.

8500watt is a few seconds, most breakers have some room for surges.

I don't know about DC, AC have 4 types A-D where D can handle 20x rated amperage for a short time.

As far as I can tell, all my DC breakers are C class, 5 to 10 time.

For BMS, anything above 100A I can not advice Mosfet based.
While fets use little power them selves, they do give a voltage drop.
0.5 volt at 20A isn't bad.
At 100A, it's an 50 watt heater...

I really do prefer contractor based.

It's not new invention, DC with higher capacity.
Most known things use Contactors.
Starting your car (starter contractor) or golf cart (continuous use contractor)
And yes, both use electricity when working. My 400A about 7 watt.

Normally speaking you have 2 contactor, one to stop charge and one to stop discharge.

DIY solution like using the relay not to make the Contactor click, but the power switch of the inverter are used a lot also.

BMS like Chargery and electrodacus use relay to turn on the contactor.
Or your inverter :)

Same for your charger, if it have a power switch, you could use the relay to turn it off when one cell reach 3.65v.

In solar situation, most solar controllers (stand alone or build in for hybrid) always work when there is enough light.
They have their charge profile, and are unaware of imbalance for the cells.
Most don't have a power switch!

In more complex installations, I would suggest DIYBMS.
You have 4 controllable relays.
That can be
AC Contactor,
DC for charge,
DC for discharge,
Fan for cooling,
Turn on coffee machine :)
Anything you like.

In my setup I stop AC power at 2.8v
But continue DC usage
I have several things running of DC.
One of them my security system.
It's all low capacity, so should last days on the 2.8v. (+50 kWh LiFePO4 powerwall)
It it does go too low, there is a Contactor for that as well.

For your straightforward setup:
Power backup with 48v (S16) 14 kWh LiFePO4, you won't use 100A

Realistic, when the grid goes down, you won't be using your high capacity equipment.
Clothes dryer are known energy hungry, bit not directly essential during the few hours blackout.

How much will you realistic use?
2000 watt?
Your setup build for 6 hours backup?

Don't overthink it.
A dumb Daly, set and forget type will work perfectly.
(Split port)

Sure, you don't see what's going on.
You don't need to.
First time your multimeter will give you all the information you need.

Charge each individual cell to 3.65.
Once finished, place all 16 in parallel and charge again to 3.65.

Then you are sure all are fully charged and balanced.

Make your installation, connect charger and inverter.
Done.

While LiFePO4 doesn't self discharge as fast as lead acid, it still does.

Tickle charge like lead acid?
Your cells won't be happy.

Ideally you top up once a month.
And obviously after a blackout.

Don't let your charger on 24/7.
Your battery will last year's longer with just once a month top up.

As it's a emergency setup.
You aren't going to check the cell voltage every day of few hours.
You simply should not care.

I doubt you care about the rechargeable toothbrush or shaver...

As always, during installation:
Work clean.
OCD like clean you busbars and terminals.
Aluminium oxidise in 20 seconds to a level it will effect the conductivity.

Use antioxidation compound like ox-gard

Your busbars should not be clean pure copper, but plated. Aluminium and copper aren't friends (galvanic corrosion)

Don't (!!!!!) Use the screw you get with the cells!!!.
Use 304 stainless steel studs / rod/ headless bolts.
The weak aluminium thread needs to be fully used.
Twisting motion force with a screw/bolt is really stressful on the weak thread.
Get digital Torquemeter. They are about $30,-
download.jpeg
It's Impossible to feel equal force by hand, and the clamping force will effect the overall Balance.

Minimal 3.5 Nm, advice 4Nm
You will strip a healthy thread with +5.xNm
Above 7Nm you have the risk to twist the terminal in its plastic holding.
I tried on defective cell and it started spinning at 9Nm
(Re-tapped the thread with M8, and used epoxy for additional strength.
Obviously, that is stronger then 9Nm! :) )

If you want to avoid issues with pulled out threads, clean the thread, clean the stud (acetone) and use JB weld epoxy or similar.

When you first scrub the terminal clean, apply ox-gard, and clean the thread, the epoxy that you spill won't stick to the aluminium.

Some Epoxy with a toothpick on the side tread of the terminal, incert the stud and wiggle it a bit while twisting it down.
Excess epoxy will go via the thread up, and easy be removed with a toothpick.
After this, your (pre-charged to 3.65v) cell is ready for final installation :)

Good luck!
 
I've not been across this renewable bridge before, but sounds like you (and so many other on this forum) dozens of times... THANKS!
 
How much will you realistic use?
2000 watt?
Your setup build for 6 hours backup?
Worst case in Michigan: Furnace + micro + sump pump + ?? = 2kw - 4kw

Actual winter usages over night are well under 10kwh.
Actually plan to charge about 70% (10 yr UPS I hope).
With 70% charge I figure ~ 200Ah (9.6kwh) should be all good.
 
Realistic, when the grid goes down, you won't be using your high capacity equipment.
Clothes dryer are known energy hungry, bit not directly essential during the few hours blackout.
Setup: Active Sump Backup system / Passive Home Backup System.
My DC backup sump died which is how I mushroomed into this project - OMG

Worst case I loose power (out of town) and my finished basement is finished!
I think this may be the record cost for backup sump system!

The bonus will be having home backup power overnight without running loud generators at the flip of a switch, while having automatic backup on the sump. Don't plan to go overboard with AGS etc on the generator, at the risk of becoming to $$ and complicated.
 

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Surge specifications aren't normally used.

8500watt is a few seconds, most breakers have some room for surges.
Below table is what I figure for Amp draw.
I'm going to use Magnum as I understand low freq inverters are strong on surge side.

My home has 3 floors of living, 2 kitchens, in-laws etc, so who knows what could get flipped on with over 50 breakers.
I don't want to worry about jumping out of bed in the morning to stop others from turning on too much. :sleep: ?
I come from automotive engineering where we say what can go wrong will go wrong - eventually.

That being said, I'm not sure if I'm pushing my luck if 100A BMS.
I checked with Overkill and they say 48v 16s BMS is "good for 280A if less than 5 sec."
1. Am I too worried about the 100A?
2. Would Overkill work - 100% ?
3. Is there any risk of going with 200A aside being a few $$ more?
Yes, I love the Kiss theory here (❤️), but also like idea of being able to trouble shoot if need be.​
Heltec 200A Active Balance like others are using in forum (like @ArthurEld ) sounds nice, but Hell to install (?) and more feature than needed.​
It would be great to find something in 200A range that installs easy and has ability to see fig's.​
Thank you (@fhorst ) to help understand the over / under 100A differences in BMS' - it seems I'm on the proverbial fence, and need someone to push me off !!​

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For BMS, anything above 100A I can not advice Mosfet based.
While fets use little power them selves, they do give a voltage drop.
0.5 volt at 20A isn't bad.
At 100A, it's an 50 watt heater...
Point taken about power consumption - no very desirable.

Could this JBD with relay solve the power consumption problem?
It shows a working consumption of less than 50ma.
Being a non-solar app maybe this could be good compromise...
1619746411722.png
 

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Point taken about power consumption - no very desirable.

Could this JBD with relay solve the power consumption problem?
It shows a working consumption of less than 50ma.
Being a non-solar app maybe this could be good compromise...
View attachment 47227

This is more or less the same as a normal and small BMS connected on to an external contactor or power relay, like I explained before.
With this kind of power regulating equipement, on which you should be able to rely on, I personally would choose some higher quality.

Why don't you take an often used and recommended BMS, and connect a good >200A contactor on to the P- and main battery [+]
Combined with an additional stand alone active cell balancer for better balancing during high loads.
For protection on the load and charge side of the battery, you install appropritate circuit breakers, and a main switch on the battery [+].
 
Thank you for the input(s). My whole system has gravitated towards reliability and that seems to be the message here, again.
I just need to over come all my first-time learning curves so things fall (fit) in place.
Seems there's always a plus and minus in this business (lol).
 
Point taken about power consumption - no very desirable.

Could this JBD with relay solve the power consumption problem?
It shows a working consumption of less than 50ma.
Being a non-solar app maybe this could be good compromise...
View attachment 47227
They most likely are talking about BMS power consumption and not the Contactor.

The +$150 high quality contactor from Mouser or Digikey uses just 3 watt.

For my calculations I'm using S16, 51.2v

They write about 50 Mili ampere.
0.05A X 51.2v=2.5 watts.

Clearly their $20,- contactor isn't going to use less power then a $150 high quality one.

What if it's 10 watts.

You have grid, and you do need to top up each month for longer life.

10 watts, 0.19Ah
Or 4.7 Ah per day.
In roughly 60 days the battery pack is drained if you don't charge, and don't use.

And that's the point.

You aren't using.

So you don't need to activate the Contactor!
 
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Point taken about power consumption - no very desirable.

Could this JBD with relay solve the power consumption problem?
It shows a working consumption of less than 50ma.
Being a non-solar app maybe this could be good compromise...
View attachment 47227
They most likely are talking about BMS power consumption and not the Contactor.

The +$150 high quality contactor from Mouser or Digikey uses just 3 watt.

They write about 50 Mili ampere.
0.05A X 51.2v=2.5 watts.

Clearly their $20,- contactor isn't going to use less power then a $150 high quality one.

What if it's 10 watts.

You have grid, and you do need to top up each month for longer life.

10 watts, 0.19Ah
Or 4.7 Ah per day.
In roughly 60 days the battery pack is drained if you don't charge, and don't use.

And that's the point.

You aren't using.

So you don't need to activate the Contactor!
 
This is more or less the same as a normal and small BMS connected on to an external contactor or power relay, like I explained before.
With this kind of power regulating equipement, on which you should be able to rely on, I personally would choose some higher quality.

Why don't you take an often used and recommended BMS, and connect a good >200A contactor on to the P- and main battery [+]
Combined with an additional stand alone active cell balancer for better balancing during high loads.
For protection on the load and charge side of the battery, you install appropritate circuit breakers, and a main switch on the battery [+].
I agree it's a quick and easy solution, but DIY.

Not a lot, all you do is not connect the p- and b- to the battery, but power source and Contactor

You let the BMS be the relay it actually is.
All it needs to do is monitoring, and act when one cell gets too high or too low.
If it can do Balance, that's a nice plus.

If your system needs to be 24/7 standby, it will have 24/7 power consumption.

Turning on the inverter already uses +50 watts.

Assuming you don't have the inverter powered 24/7, why would the BMS be?
Your not using the cells.

Simple 20A BMS , as stupid as they go, just a few parts :)
And you can get the best quality you like for about $50.

The quality Contactor... That will set you back a few bucks.
Good news, it probably will outlive you.
 
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