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Schneider LiFePo4 Build

flpilgrim

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Thanks again to everyone on the forum so far in the design help with our system. Due to my rather public problems with our supplier, I've had to put things together a bit at a time and it will take a while before completion.

I have a Schneider XWPro a Conext MPPT 100 charge controller and a 16s 48v LiFePo4 battery I built with 280ah cells from 18650 battery store with an Overkill BMS

I've got the battery built and the Schneider equipment powered on, I'm testing the panels and running feed lines outside to the panels today. Overkill has my battery sitting at 26% and I'd like to test my charge controller settings.

I think I've got my head wrapped around most of these concepts in general but drilling down into the charge settings on the controller is a bit confusing so if someone out there spots something catastrophic I'm doing wrong feel free to chime in.

As the saying goes, I used to hold the flashlight for my dad back in the 80's...you're not going to hurt my feelings lol.

Feel free to ask any questions if you have or are considering a similar system.
 
Assuming your bulk/absorb/float voltages are good, the only thing I see here would be the absorption time. Generaly with lithium ion, you don't want that to be too long. I have mine set to 15 minutes based on docs from my battery manufacturer.
 
Normally float voltage is less than absorption voltage. Yours is the opposite.

Also, with lithium batteries, best to shut off the equalize portion or to set the voltage to the same as float or absorption. Yours is set to 68 which if triggered could ruin the batteries. You have equalization shut off, but changing the voltage to something safe if triggered helps. Can't help what a guest, spouse, or not so knowledgeable tech may press a button to start equalize. My system has a physical button on top of the software that will trigger equalization.

Because 280 ah cells lack specs, I had trouble finding a good float and absorption for my 3 kW inverter, 13 kWh battery pack, and 24 volt setup. As far as what I used for float and absorption, I used 3.475 per cell as absorption, which is 27.8 volts for my 12 volt system or 55.6 for yours. This got me in excess of 95% SOC. Float took a little tweaking, and I don't have the voltage in front of me, but basically kept the batteries at 100% SOC and when loads were on, except for the initial few seconds, the power is replaced by the panels when the sun was shining. At first, I had this set too low, and my batteries were slowly draining and I did not want to go into sundown with a depleted battery pack.

Since your voltages are 54.4 and 53.6, those could be good start points. If you balance your cells, I do think 54.4 may be too low at 3.4 VDC per cell if you are using active balancing. Normally that is not triggered until about then, and balancing too much below that could cause the top balance portion to get out of whack.

If the Scheider has a website that tell how to set different batteries to that would be good. I have fortress batteries for my house, different than the RV batteries I mentioned above, and to see what the recommend for Schneider for their battery, try this page. Would be nice to use Eve guidelines, but they don't exist. I'm not sure your bulk boost and recharge voltages should be at 48 VDC.
 
Assuming your bulk/absorb/float voltages are good, the only thing I see here would be the absorption time. Generaly with lithium ion, you don't want that to be too long. I have mine set to 15 minutes based on docs from my battery manufacturer.
thanks, do you know why the absorption stage should be shorter for lifepo4?
 
Normally float voltage is less than absorption voltage. Yours is the opposite.
If I'm understanding my installation/owner guide, the parameter is the voltage at which the mppt initiates that charge state. so absorption kicks in at 53.6 and float kicks in at 54.4. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a little confused about some of this.

I'm also trying to understand if my overkill bms and my mppt are going to interfere with each other's desired charge state.

I thought i understood the xwpro inverter would take excess solar power above and direct it to loads without discharging the battery at all. are you saying your system is taking charge from the battery and just replacing it immediately while the sun is shining? do you know how that affects your cycle rate?

I appreciate the input.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a little confused about some of this.
Those voltages set the target voltage in that stage. When the charger enters absorption it will try to push up to that voltage. So they are not voltage triggers, they are settings / targets. Other factors determine what kicks off a charging cycle.

If you set everything at 54 or below you can play around and watch how the charge cycles work and be comfortable it will not overcharge. Eventually, you will probably want to get into 55-57v range on some parts of the cycle to push the charge faster once you are comfortable with the cycle timing and behavior.
 
If I'm understanding my installation/owner guide, the parameter is the voltage at which the mppt initiates that charge state. so absorption kicks in at 53.6 and float kicks in at 54.4. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a little confused about some of this.
Appears your setup is off grid. With the fortress battery pack I have, if I used a Schneider Inverter om off grid, these would be the MPPT settings:

1703464406704.png
This Chart applies to the fortress batteries, but may not apply to your EVE 280 AH.

To me the 54.4 Absorption/ Boost Float makes a lot of sense.

When a battery charges the Absorbtion/Bulk is trying to put 54.4 volts in, but because the battery is drained from a night's use, the it can't push that much voltage in so it sends as much amps into the battery as it can, or to the max amp limit you set on the MPPT/Charger. If this is 30 amps, you'll see the voltage slowly climb while it takes 30 amps until it hits 54.4. Up to now is the constant current. Once this 54.4 volts is hit,the voltage will stay at 54.4 but the amperage will taper down. Once it gets full and can't take any more amperage, the voltage floats.

Normally the float voltage is lower than the absorption voltage. Some references even do not recommend a floating. Perhaps a lithium battery will last longer with no float stage. With no float, the battery will not start charging again until it gets down to the recharge voltage. Unfortunately for the off gridder, you find yourself in a situation where it may be at 53.1 volts getting near sunset and that leaves you in a state where you go start a night with a lower battery.

The float voltage keeps this towards 100%. IME, if float is set too low, the battery does charge, but it the panels may be able to pull 100 amps from the sun, the load may be 80 amps, but because the float is too low, the MPPT only delivers 30 amps, leaving the 50 amps to come from the battery. So, again a situation where the batteries are draining themselves to a lower state for when the sun goes down, you don't start with a full pack. This probably gives you marginally less total cycles than not floating.

IME, Keeping float at bulk voltage allows the MPPT to pull as much power as possible from the MPPT and panels. On a piece of paper and a chart, there may be less charging cycles than the other two options, but when the sun sets, your batteries will be at their max charge state.

Also IME, not included in the life cycle of a battery chart is when because float was set to off or set too low, the battery went into the night at 50% SOC, and the inverter drained it overnight to the point the BMS tripped, draining the battery to nothing also shortens the life cycle, so IMO, the risk is worth a higher float.
=================
A couple other things.

First with these Eve 280 cells there is not that much data published as in tech specs. That leaves you having to guess with what you can find and internet searches.

Second, you have a Tier 1 Inverter with the Schneider, and this Tier 1 inverter is paired with Eve 280 Ah. Not many people will have that combination, so it will feel like you're blazing new trails. There's a lot of cheaper inverters out there paired with Eve 280s, but not a lot of Tier 1 inverters paired with Eve 280s.
=================
The stuff I mentioned above is from my experience with a smaller solar generator and 25 ah TopBrand cells I assembled into a battery with a generic BMS, that helped me install 2 X 8S EVE 280 AH Cells into 2 batteries each with a Overkill BMS for my RV.

Last week, the installers finished setting up my Outback that is paired with the FOrtress batteries I linked above, and I'm using that to tweak their settings. I found the installer had set a "off grid" time for me that was way too long and got my battery pack way too low, and I shortened that from 10 hours to 1 hour, and also a second setting which they had set a wake amperage for one of my MPPTs way too high, which cost me a few kWh producrion on a cloudy day.

So I'm pretty new to the Tier 1 inverters also.
 
@chrisski has a fresh strategy there and I like it, no risky voltages but keeps the charger pinned.

(I'm a schneider owner, but haven't run the MPPT yet so also taking notes myself here myself)
 
I appreciate all the input.

Yeah, I need to do a capacity test on my battery bank, still wrapping my head around doing that correctly.

I have been really impressed with build quality and the engineering of Schneider's products so far, their manuals assume quite a bit of foreknowledge I'm still picking up. I knew this would be a fairly extensive learning experience.

Some of my confusion has come from having to program three different pieces of equipment involved in the same charging task. I'm almost clear on which parameters to set on which unit--BMS, MPPT and Inverter but I'm not quite there yet.

My primary question involves the inverter though. Documentation seems to imply that excess PV current is Inverted to my A/C loads without drawing from the battery once fully charged. So far I haven't been able to observe that. I don't know if I'm looking at it incorrectly, if there is a setting in the Inverter I haven't switched on, or if Overkill's BMS doesn't allow the battery to charge/discharge at the same time like I'm imagining it. I was picturing the process like an auto alternator where the battery acts like a sink.


Second, you have a Tier 1 Inverter with the Schneider, and this Tier 1 inverter is paired with Eve 280 Ah. Not many people will have that combination, so it will feel like you're blazing new trails. There's a lot of cheaper inverters out there paired with Eve 280s, but not a lot of Tier 1 inverters paired with Eve 280s.
=================

I did an excruciating amount of ignorant research before deciding to go with our setup. Outside of paying for a Tesla installation which would have cost four times as much I don't think there is a more robust and reliable set of components out there. I really am a curmudgeon when it comes to trusting modern manufacturing practices, especially after my hellish experience with Signature and being able to observe and possibly replace a cell or two here and there instead of the whole thing made the learning curve worth it. Not to mention the thousands we saved.

Again, thanks for chiming in, once I wrap my head around all of this fully I'll share findings so we can all learn.
 
I'll tackle this slightly differently because you got some great info above but a couple of things missed.
1st thing.... Take your Multimeter (preferably 2 decimal point accurate so it reads DC as 48.25 not just 48.2) but a single decimal will work.

With everything ON and NO LOADS or no Solar Incoming:
Check the Batt Voltage at the Schneider Boxes Terminals - Note the standing voltage.
Check the voltage at your busbars - note that too.
Check the voltage at your battery terminals and note that... They are Different aren't they ? Normal & Expected.
NEXT
Powered On and with an "average load" running from the Scheider.
Same deal, check the voltages at the above points & Note Them down... It ain't over yet !
NEXT
Powered On and Charging (Can be just SCC or SCC + Inverter Charger at same time)
Same thing again at all point and note the voltages.

Now you have a full picture of the Voltage Biases & losses during all cycles. You likely noted that when Not Charging the offset is one thing but different when charging from either/both sources. YOU MUST COMPENSATE & CORRECT FOR THAT ! (ohhh so many don't and hit walls.)

The TWO REALLY KEY POINTS OF INTEREST are the Charging Voltages (you never want to go above) and of course Inverter Low Volt Cutoff which will happen only when there is not enough power coming in from SCC/Charger. I do not use Schneider so I don't know if there are OFFSET settings for the Input/Output voltages, if so, that's the best to use for such corrections, if not it means sitting down with a calculator and correcting manually.

My suggested Profile for 48V systems. This keeps everything polite and within the LFP Working Voltage Range.
Absorb: 55.2V for 45 minutes (3.45vpc) (some call this boost) *never actually runs the full 45mins because of EndAmps reached it flips to Float.
Equalize: OFF NEVER EVER WITH ANY LITHIUM CHEMISTRY !
Float 55.0V (3.437vpc)
MIn Volts: 42.4V (2.650vpc)
Max Volts: 57.2V (3.575vpc)
Rebulk Voltage: 51.2V (3.200vpc)
End Amps: 14.0A (*1)
EndAmps/TailCurrent is calculated as follows: 100AH X 0.05 = 5A, 280AH X 0.05 = 14A
Once EndAmps/TailCurrent is reached ABSORB will kick over to FLOAT which is Constant Voltage - Variable Current to top off & balance the packs.

Your 280AH Pack can take a MAX of 140A Charge which is 0.5C, but they are actually happier taking 0.3C over longer time. The BMS needs to be able to handle 100A Charging, most typically that means a 200A BMS as most FET Based BMS' will only do 1/2 that for charging. You are likely already aware of the fact, that if you add more packs in Parallel, that they will divide Load & Charge proportionately between them. With 100A Charging that could easily accommodate 4x 280AH Packs.

The LURKING GOTCHA ! There are always a few around the corner or behind the cell.
The Schneider can do 100A charging BUT that is dedicated charging and leave little room for Passthrough power. It is best to dial that down to 80A Charging, leaving that 20A for PassThrough service. Case in Point, if you are using a Genset as backup AC source for when Grid is down (assuming you have Grid AC for Charging setup) , the Schneider will pull 120V/23-25A (+/-) to charge batteries at 80A. That lets you use a 120V/30A L5:30 outlet and keeping it in the "safe zone".

I use a Samlex EVO Inverter/Charger which is also Tier-1 like Schneider and it can also deliver 100A charge to batteries BUT that makes it dedicated and it will not passthrough anything but the lightest loads. Set to 80A, it pushes full 80 @ the bank and when a big surge comes along, it will temporarily take the balance from the batts & passthrough to service it for that short moment. Then it resumes full charge mode, while servicing house loads.

Below are some of my resources which you may find handy to have at hand for quick reference.

lfp-voltage-chart-jpg.27632


quick-voltage-chart-lfp-jpg.150247
 
My suggested Profile for 48V systems. This keeps everything polite and within the LFP Working Voltage Range.
Absorb: 55.2V for 45 minutes (3.45vpc) (some call this boost) *never actually runs the full 45mins because of EndAmps reached it flips to Float.
Equalize: OFF NEVER EVER WITH ANY LITHIUM CHEMISTRY !
Float 55.0V (3.437vpc)
MIn Volts: 42.4V (2.650vpc)
Max Volts: 57.2V (3.575vpc)
Rebulk Voltage: 51.2V (3.200vpc)
End Amps: 14.0A (*1)
EndAmps/TailCurrent is calculated as follows: 100AH X 0.05 = 5A, 280AH X 0.05 = 14A
Once EndAmps/TailCurrent is reached ABSORB will kick over to FLOAT which is Constant Voltage - Variable Current to top off & balance the packs


That's a handful there eh? I appreciate the knowledge

Those are the min/max parameters overkill suggested, they seemed a bit extreme so thanks for the confirmation. are you saying you drain your batt all the way down to 42.4 volts? I'll have to check if the inverter can operate that low. I'll get my fluke out and go see about those differentiations. Does 2/10ths of a volt really make a difference here?
 
That's a handful there eh? I appreciate the knowledge

Those are the min/max parameters overkill suggested, they seemed a bit extreme so thanks for the confirmation. are you saying you drain your batt all the way down to 42.4 volts? I'll have to check if the inverter can operate that low. I'll get my fluke out and go see about those differentiations. Does 2/10ths of a volt really make a difference here?
Every Tenth of a Volt Counts. Unlike Lead Acid which is BRUTE Force Tech, all Lithium Chemistries are Millivolt/Milliamp sensitive ! FLA can be beat hard but not Lithium... 2/10ths can push cells just above the pint where they will rn & cause issues such as High Volt Disconnect or even worse "Late Low Volt Disconnects" which if below 2.500 Vpc it can BRICK a BMS if it cannot recover to over 2.5 on all cells to accept a charge.

I have done extensive testing of various systems, settings and even hard core Thrash Tests which pushed cells & BMS' to their absolute limits. I have a box of "scrap" that failed to survive those tests even... I did this not only because it's my business but also because I am a Rural & Remote Offgridder and completely dependent on my system to live. Simply put, I can be snowed in for up to a week and temps here range from -30C/-22F to +40C/104F and having reliable power is critical.

PS the above was written while I was still nursing Coffee #1 after a rather "evil evening & night" - geez this time of year can seriously test a persons patience and Calmness.
 
Every Tenth of a Volt Counts. Unlike Lead Acid which is BRUTE Force Tech, all Lithium Chemistries are Millivolt/Milliamp sensitive ! FLA can be beat hard but not Lithium... 2/10ths can push cells just above the pint where they will rn & cause issues such as High Volt Disconnect or even worse "Late Low Volt Disconnects" which if below 2.500 Vpc it can BRICK a BMS if it cannot recover to over 2.5 on all cells to accept a charge.

I have done extensive testing of various systems, settings and even hard core Thrash Tests which pushed cells & BMS' to their absolute limits. I have a box of "scrap" that failed to survive those tests even... I did this not only because it's my business but also because I am a Rural & Remote Offgridder and completely dependent on my system to live. Simply put, I can be snowed in for up to a week and temps here range from -30C/-22F to +40C/104F and having reliable power is critical.

PS the above was written while I was still nursing Coffee #1 after a rather "evil evening & night" - geez this time of year can seriously test a persons patience and Calmness.
good to know. so your goal is maximizing your storage potential? if that why you program so close to your battery limits?
 
Let me put it this way.... I have 10 days of reserve power before I need a genset or solar to charge... There are times that 10 days is not enough even... Happen to be in one of those time slots now...
 
I use the Schneider XWpro 6848 and the XW MPPT100 chargers (x2).
As was stated previosly above, get that Equalize voltage way down so you do not accidently hurt anything. I do not use equalize either.

My bulk boost is set to 56v because of personal need with 11 EG4 batteries.. I dont reccomend a start of 56v, play around a bit and see what you like.
My float is whatever i need for the season, right now, 55v and in the summer 54.5v. I vary because of so many batteries and a slightly imperfect system. I use 53.2v at recharge, no great reason.
As also stated before by @chrisski it would be bad to go into a storm or night with only 50 percent battery. So a float is useful even if only 54v. 54v should still be near 90% SOC.

I also do not use the XWPRO to charge my batteries at all. I dont touch the grid at all for personal reasons. I can tell you that switching to Schneider equipment resolved a number of problems in my home. I love the Schneider equipment and will never go back.

The charts shown above by @Steve_S should be a great help. I used such charts when I was experimenting with what bulk, float, recharge I wanted to use.

I have enough muscle in the panels to keep runing everything in the home except the 2 ton heat pump Dec and Jan. That goes to grid in the long dark days. It has its own transfer switch.
Anyway, those are my basic settings with my Schneider eqiupment.

I believe you will find those XW MPPT100 charge controllers scavange power spectacularly from low light days. They beat everything I have tried before on the same panels.
 
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