School me on 240v (single, split phase)

[nadieselgirl]

Hi, folks

I've got a Growatt 12000 DVM split phase inverter installed. I'd like to add some electric heaters. (yes, I've got the capacity especially daytime)

I'm a little confused. My 240v dryer is basically two 120v hots, common neutral and a ground.

The electric heaters seem to expect (from the online manuals) a 240v input from one hot, one neutral plus of course the ground. Can I use these heaters with my inverter? Or would I need to add a second inverter setup strictly for 240v single phase output like the Growatt ES 5000?

I'm looking at the Cadet and Stiebel 240v 2000 watt heaters for example.

Thanks!

 

[OzSolar]

In the USA 240v split phase has two 120v hots legs and a neutral and that sounds like what you've got.

I've put a few 240v heaters in my shop and have helped a others wire in 240v shop heaters and all they needed was two hot legs and a ground.

Something is not adding up with those heaters. Could you somehow be looking at manuals intended for non USA applications?

 

[MrThisIsME]

Are you sure you are looking at the correct diagram in the manual? I see the diagram for the CK 20 E as below which shows two legs of 120 out of phase going in. Contradicts what you are saying here.

 

[Mattb4]

Don't buy the European version of these heaters that is single phase 240v.

 

[XO4001]

Don't buy the European version of these heaters that is single phase 240v.

Can you tell me why?
I'm running various equipment from Europe on split phase 240 with no problems.

 

[Mattb4]

Single phase Euro 240v uses only one hot wire at 240v to neutral. American standard 240v split phase uses two 120v hot legs to add up to 240v. Neutral simply is there if a 120v control circuit is needed or as a ground.

 

[XO4001]

if a 120v control circuit is needed

Thank you for the explanation but European equipment do not have a control circuit needed 120Volts because they operate at 240V.
So I don't see any reason why you cannot use EU 240V equipment on 240V split phase.
Only motors running faster if 50Hz EU is used.
But maybe I still miss something.

 

[Mattb4]

USA
2 hot legs versus Euro 1.
L1: 120vAC 180 degrees out of phase of L2
N: 0vAC
L2: 120vAC 180 degrees out of phase of L1

Euro
L1: 240vAC
N: 0vAC

 

[Goboatingnow]

Thank you for the explanation but European equipment do not have a control circuit needed 120Volts because they operate at 240V.
So I don't see any reason why you cannot use EU 240V equipment on 240V split phase.
Only motors running faster if 50Hz EU is used.
But maybe I still miss something.

You are technically correct. European 240 vac nominal ( it’s not 240 ) va. Be connected to the two hot wires of a U.S. split phase.

Be aware however that European items will typically have a single pole switch on the hit wire only. So the now normally ground referenced neutral will be live.

 

[MrThisIsME]

So I don't see any reason why you cannot use EU 240V equipment on 240V split phase.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Nothing could be further from the truth.

US split phase as far as viewing it both hots and equating that are an appliance level with European 230vac ( stop using 240) is in fact an identical power system




Since European appliances using an unearthed appliance ( common for lamps , and double insulated power supplies etc ) are essentially using an unpolarised plug ( Schuko 2 pin for example ) hence most European appliances never assume neutral is not hot.

Hence at an appliance level split phase and phase and neutral are essentially the same.

European appliances will never ever have neutral connected to protective earth within the appliance.

Hence within reason a European 230vac appliance assuming their is no issue with the frequency difference has no real issue being powered by a US split phase 240 va using the two hot wires only.

 

[Mattb4]

Can you do it? Yes. Should you do it if you can buy the proper equipment meeting the standards of the country you live? No.

Using a hot as a neutral can cause other issues for things more complicated than a heater element.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Can you do it? Yes. Should you do it if you can buy the proper equipment meeting the standards of the country you live? No.

Using a hot as a neutral can cause other issues for things more complicated than a heater element.

No ordinary European appliance is built on the assumption that neutral is at earth potential. Unpolarised plugs are extremely common in Europe ( unlike the U.K. or Ireland )

So there is no “ complication “ per se

 

[XO4001]

Thank you all for this interesting thread.
Just wanted to know if I would be in danger doing so because I'm using a lot EU tools on split phase.
Learned something today and that's good.

 

[Mattb4]

Since I have little practical experience with European appliances I concede your superior knowledge concerning them. I would prefer people not to use a hot wire as a neutral based on long decades of wiring for proper polarity here in the States.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Since I have little practical experience with European appliances I concede your superior knowledge concerning them. I would prefer people not to use a hot wire as a neutral based on long decades of wiring for proper polarity here in the States.

While I fully accept your perspective , it’s largely based merely on what you are used to, as opposed to the real comparative reality.

As I said unpolarised 230 is identical to split phase electrically. After that it’s a matter of case by case so to speak.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Since I have little practical experience with European appliances I concede your superior knowledge concerning them. I would prefer people not to use a hot wire as a neutral based on long decades of wiring for proper polarity here in the States.

and yet the common 110vac 2 pin socket is in fact unpolarised, hence hot neutral is quite common in the US.

 

[saen]

In Europe we use 230V single phase with half amperage, compared to strange standard in USA,
with double amperage in 120V in metal pipes.
With is more dangerous then anyone on rest of the world can imagine.
Also in Europe we use 50Hz, not 60Hz, with for rheostat heaters have no difference,
but some electronics is not so happy.

 

[Goboatingnow]

In Europe we use 230V single phase with half amperage, compared to strange standard in USA,
with double amperage in 120V in metal pipes.
With is more dangerous then anyone on rest of the world can imagine.
Also in Europe we use 50Hz, not 60Hz, with for rheostat heaters have no difference,
but some electronics is not so happy.

The point being discussed in that for example taking a standard European mains power tool , typically double insulated and using it in 240 vac is split phase ( split phase is still single phase as regards the two hot lines ) is absolutely fine and safe.

Electronics generally are not bothered by the 50 /60 hz thing.

 

[saen]

The point being discussed in that for example taking a standard European mains power tool , typically double insulated and using it in 240 vac is split phase ( split phase is still single phase as regards the two hot lines ) is absolutely fine and safe.

Electronics generally are not bothered by the 50 /60 hz thing.

Some appliances with motor rotate slower/faster because this 10Hz difference
can be tested with old cassette players with 90-240V input and switch for 50/60Hz