Small scale project

[Slash67]

Good morning:
Looking for advice for installing solar for a few off grid yurts in the rocky mountains. Deciding weather to go with propane vs solar?. Need to power a hot plate for cooking and a few lites. Our cousin and his wife have won the bid and have contracted with the Colorado state forest service to operate 7 yurts and two cabins. There contractors are building the platforms and yurts starting June, him and I are going to install the beds, wood stove and either propane or solar. Any advice is much appreciated! Thx in advance!

 

[Brucey]

Will they be operating year round or closed for the winter?

 

[Slash67]

Year round

 

[Mattb4]

Likely the simplest and easiest to do is the propane using small propane cylinders. Lights from batteries (AA rechargeable are handy). Solar for 2 cabins and 7 yurts would involve a lot of components, wiring and setup.

 

[Slash67]

Likely the simplest and easiest to do is the propane using small propane cylinders. Lights from batteries (AA rechargeable are handy). Solar for 2 cabins and 7 yurts would involve a lot of components, wiring and setup.

Getting to the cabins in the winter will be rough carying tanks. We were thinking 500 gal tanks, fill in summer only. These will be rented year round and very busy.

 

[Slash67]

Will they be operating year round or closed for the winter?

They will be rented year round and very busy.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Need to power a hot plate for cooking and a few lites. Our cousin and his wife have won the bid and have contracted with the Colorado state forest service to operate 7 yurts and two cabins. There contractors are building the platforms and yurts starting June, him and I are going to install the beds, wood stove and either propane or solar.

How close are these structures?
Close enough for one single 500gal propane? Or conversely, close enough to connect with underground wiring?

While a big array of vertical panels will thwart snow ceasing production, but there’s also the factor of avoiding people using 120VAC for ‘other’ purposes, taking down the whole system. Likely way more up-front $ with solar, but it doesn’t require filling whenever- ever- if adequately designed and structures are close enough.
Solar also doesn’t blow up if people are stupid, and emt is another durability layer not as complex as hands-off propane installations.

What have ‘other’ installations like this done to achieve the goals? Other operators might raise red flags for both solar and propane that would be worthy food for thought.

I’m not you, though. In years of dealing with power on small boats and RV’s I have so little faith in people in general to be safe on their own I’d be scared to run a remote site with propane LOL

Speaking of good for thought- this possibly could be one of those rare instances where an “unusually large” 12V system could possibly make sense because you can do lighting so easily at low voltage, low consumption, and low cost. Although these 120VAC electric skillets and/or electric coffeemakers spread over nine shelter units running all at the same time each morning might require multiple inverters to support the amps/wattage safely.

 

[Mattb4]

Getting to the cabins in the winter will be rough carying tanks. We were thinking 500 gal tanks, fill in summer only. These will be rented year round and very busy.

Cabins are different than yurts for the ability to install infrastructure. You can run pipe and wires in walls but I am unsure how you would do this for a yurt.

 

[Q-Dog]

Need to know the power requirements of the hot plate (actually need to know all loads, but lights are easy). It takes a decent amount of electricity to make heat.

 

[MTM98290]

I would use solar for lighting for sure 12-24v dc. It doesn't take much at all, as was pointed out it is the heat that is more of a challenge.

How about diesel heat? Its harder to blow yourself up with diesel. The Tomitoyo Laser heaters look interesting though I have never seen them in person.

Another option would be pellet stoves as they don't require a lot of electricity. Buy pellets by the pallet in summer when they are cheapest and stockpile them. They do require frequent cleaning, so if they aren't constantly checking on it they would be problematic. They are much less likely to allow dangerous misuse.

I really wouldn't want AC inverter system in the hands of a person who doesn't care. I doubt a $10,000 solar system deposit would fly.

 

[Slash67]

How close are these structures?
Close enough for one single 500gal propane? Or conversely, close enough to connect with underground wiring?

While a big array of vertical panels will thwart snow ceasing production, but there’s also the factor of avoiding people using 120VAC for ‘other’ purposes, taking down the whole system. Likely way more up-front $ with solar, but it doesn’t require filling whenever- ever- if adequately designed and structures are close enough.
Solar also doesn’t blow up if people are stupid, and emt is another durability layer not as complex as hands-off propane installations.

What have ‘other’ installations like this done to achieve the goals? Other operators might raise red flags for both solar and propane that would be worthy food for thought.

I’m not you, though. In years of dealing with power on small boats and RV’s I have so little faith in people in general to be safe on their own I’d be scared to run a remote site with propane LOL

Speaking of good for thought- this possibly could be one of those rare instances where an “unusually large” 12V system could possibly make sense because you can do lighting so easily at low voltage, low consumption, and low cost. Although these 120VAC electric skillets and/or electric coffeemakers spread over nine shelter units running all at the same time each morning might require multiple inverters to support the amps/wattage safely.

Great feedback, thx for your thoughts. These yurts are very far apart. Need stand alone system for each. Was thinking 48v system but 12 might be safer. Plan on putting equipment in large junction boxes and run plugs out of them to prevent theft. Our biggest concern is that a 2000w coverter can handel a 1500w hotplate for someones cooking pleasure? Or what would we need to make it right?

 

[Slash67]

Need to know the power requirements of the hot plate (actually need to know all loads, but lights are easy). It takes a decent amount of electricity to make heat.

Plan on using a 1500w hotplate. Most guest could heat what the need in about an hour or less each morning and night. Lights only needed at night and will be minimum .

 

[Slash67]

Will they be operating year round or closed for the winter?

Year around and busy

 

[Slash67]

Will they be operating year round or closed for the winter?

all year around

 

[Slash67]

Cabins are different than yurts for the ability to install infrastructure. You can run pipe and wires in walls but I am unsure how you would do this for a yurt.

These are hard wall yurts but you are right, cant go in the walls. Will be able to mount on the walls.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Was thinking 48v system but 12 might be safer.

Not specifically safer than 48V but safer because of an uncontrolled “public”

Plan on putting equipment in large junction boxes and run plugs out of them to prevent theft.

heat buildup ‘could’ be an issue

biggest concern is that a 2000w coverter can handel a 1500w hotplate for someones cooking pleasure

if going midshelf commodity like Giandel or Reliable/QZRELB I’d probably want a 2500W or 3000W QZRELB but a cheaper MSW could be used for resistance heating.

Electric seems less ‘risky’ for an unmanaged public as opposed to open flame propane but propane would be much less expensive and you ‘could’ permanently attach one of these to a concrete worktop with no-tamper bolts.
*why wouldn’t remote campers not bring their own butane hiker cook stoves? That would solve the liability and insurance coverage issue in case a negligent/unbright person manages to kill or maim themselves, die of CO, or at best- burn down your infrastructure…

Plan on using a 1500w hotplate. Most guest could heat what the need in about an hour or less each morning and night.

so your solar power setup costs for ~3kWh of supply is going to be FAR beyond what I think you are expecting. The price of the battery bank alone for a 3kWh daily demand (minimum) would probably cover 2+ units with both propane and some tiny but adequate LED lights, a 200W panel, lead marine battery, and a little cheap pwm controller with usb ports as a bonus.

Unless you are totally bent on solar, as a businessman I wouldn’t do electric hot plate. Cementing in an $80 RV stovetop sounds inexpensive and no complaints from guests demanding money back.

 

[robbob2112]

Do you have to hike the gear in or could you take it on a truck in summer?

Assuming you can truck it in, a telecom closet could be built in a garage with inverter, 2 - 48v100ah server batteries and an inverter on a shelf. They can take heating and cooling units designed for neg 48v. Then just figure out a panel array to support the closet plus heating element. Panels on a single post mount so it can be tilted twice a year.

Use an inductive cooktop and mount it permanently. No heat souce so minimal fire risk. Hard to steal if you use one made for a RV. Might be able to find a 48vdc version and skip the inverter.

No exposed wiring for the unwashed masses. Just have to bring a single conduit through the wall or floor and that hole could be patched if you ever need to remove it.

Not the cheapest way but can be pre-assembled and trucked in.

 

[seneysolar]

As much as i hate them, id probably get a handful of commercially available portable power stations capable of maybe 500w-1000w. Just enough for a string of lights and charging phones. They could get exchanged for a fresh charged one between renters or charged during the day off a single panel. This way its limited, contained, warranteed, and replaceable.

Definitely propane for cooking, its the most cost effective.

If i owned the property, plans would be much different. Id have solar everywhere! But capital improvements to government property just doesn't make sense and is likely subject to strict standards.

 

[Rednecktek]

Just to throw my $0.02 in as someone with a camp in the mountains...

Solar or propane? Yes.

Due to the sub freezing temps up there you're going to be stuck with lead acid batteries of some flavor without having to design systems large enough just to maintain and feed batteries. Since lead acid is only about 50% usable capacity wise, you're going to need twice as many physical batteries for the same usable capacity.

My suggestion is this:

Get a MPP 1012-LV and 2-4 of the WallyWorld DC29 marine batteries and 800w of panels per yurt/cabin. Wire up all the lights, USB port sockets, exhaust fans, and some cig lighter sockets inside, use 12v LED's. Set up a single circuit of outlets with big red stickers saying " NO Electric Cookers!!" Plumb in a propane cooktop/stove (remember to change the orifice!!) and a couple propane heaters to a large stand alone tank. That provides enough power for portable devices, some 120v for the oddball things that require a wall outlet, but still the ability to heat and cook. You can keep the costs and simplicity down which will really add up after a few installs. Have a shack with pre-programmed AIO's as spares and you can always have a couple spare batteries if Walmart is too far away.

That solves all your needs, keeps things simple, handles the cold weather, and doesn't break the bank.

But that's just me.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

You can keep the costs and simplicity down which will really add up after a few installs.

Right.

I don’t know what the factored budget is, and I’m assuming 120VAC is not required- just some lights and a place to cook.

Wildhat guessing here, not factoring for heating two cabins and seven yurts since that wasn’t a mentioned goal:

$80 propane stove, a 30# cylinder, minimal solar for lighting, and guessing $1000 per unit would do it.

probably get a handful of commercially available portable power stations capable of maybe 500w-1000w

That adds up FA$T and still no 1500W hot plate or solar panels. And theftability with liability. And cold temperature no-no.
Cost to furnish seems unreasonable to not get the cooking part done.

inverter, 2 - 48v100ah server batteries and an inverter on a shelf.

That bumps to $4500 or so per unit with marginal panels and you still need an aio or SCC of some sort

So $9000 for services with propane cooking and solar lights. Call it $10,000

Server rack and cooktop $36,000 add wiring and misc headaches to install call it $40k

I’m just surprised this wasn’t all figured out before making a contract bid. That is how my mind works. Profit=Billable-(Cost+Labor+Margin) where ‘margin’ is just your markup (ROI), and Cost+Labor is your investment/working capital.
Then engineer implementation efficiency to reduce expenses as much as possible while performing the contract.

Though we don’t know the budget.
Maybe furnishing yurts is an Elon-level profitable enterprise and there’s $150,000 in spare operating capital? Dunno.