Small wind turbines no longer worth it?

[wjjones]

Small turbines are good hobby turbines, and they get you on the learning curve for installing a bigger turbine.

 

[AKvalleyguy]

Oh man, I don't have time to get started on small wind turbines. We put our first one up in 2005. After a couple of years my son and I wrote a book on wind turbines. An actual book, well, actually an ebook to go along with our RE website. Got into the basics of many small turbines available at the time, Bergy, SWWP, Kestrel, AWP, Ventura, and more.

The reason I took such an interest in small wind was, it didn't seem to be worth the money investment for the trouble. We had solar and wind and each winter our SWWP 200 was destroyed for one reason or the other. It was on a 100ft tilt-down tower so well above any turbulence. The solar panels always worked without complaint but today that's a well know fact. Of course that was the days of high priced solar so wind did look attractive to the renewable or off grid customer.

I didn't read each post so this may be a prevailing attitude or maybe someone has come up with a super durable turbine and my added 2 cents might be irrelevant. To be fair, there are some remote locations in AK that successfully use/used the Air X type turbines for telecom batteries. Midnite Solar produced a similar one for a brief time but seems to have abandoned it.

If you have Lifepo4 type battery I might be hesitant to try wind. We used a Trace C40 for the divert controller and reacted slowly to activate the dump load. In gusty winds the voltage would spike up often. Not a problem for the lead acid batteries. Probably better equipment out there today. I'm sure there will be alternative opinions to mine and there are probably some machines that work in milder wind environments. In the old days, Otherpower was the source for homebuilt turbine info. They were a good bunch of guys in the wind arena.

 

[OzSolar]

"The only small wind turbines that work don't have monitoring".​

I stole that quote from a pier who, like me, tried and tried but never installed or even saw a small wind turbine that really ever worked. "Worked" being defined as actually producing anything close to the expected energy (kwh) over the course of at least several years (heck I'd like to just see one month of hitting production estimates) verified by actual monitoring which is a much different thing than watching it hit rated watts for a few seconds during a high wind event. "Look Bubba!! My wind turbine hit 44 amps for 3 seconds in a thunderstorm" doesn't count.

Rambling rant follows.......

Over the last 30 years I've installed or been around pretty much all of them except the old time Jacobs. That list includes (all?) of the "quality" brands like modern Jacobs, Bergey, XZERES, Proven, Kestrel, AWP, Enertech and a few others. I've never installed one right on the ocean coast but but after speaking to some owners the salt environment eats them alive.

Thankfully I only actively installed small wind for less than 3 years and then realized something was up so just started telling people to call someone else. However since my name was out there for many years to come people would still call me to try to save their project. I'm might take look at some but most people already knew they were skunked and just needed a 2nd opinion. Some wanted to me to buy them but I could only respond with "I wouldn't unless I've got already have a buyer who knows exactly what they are getting into"

The names might change but the story never does so here it goes: Within 3 months of installation its pretty clear that we had been told some pretty big lies by the manufacturer. Within 24 months most have been down at least two times for months or longer and now the warranty process clearly isn't worth the hassle to keep them alive any longer. Then there's a few that managed to still be flying after 5 years. Eventually there's one last failure and the owner has all lost their appetite to keep trying as turbine has established that it will continue to spend more down time being repaired than in than the air.

Keep in mind I'm talking about residential scale stuff as in 10KW or below.

And, yes all of this applies to the $60,000 Bergey 10kW. Good like finding a Bergey owner that is happy. You will often see 5 to 10 years old ones pop up on eBay often needing new blades. If they list the reason for being sold it will be because "it doesn't produce any energy at my site"

 

[OzSolar]

I've gone through two 1kw wind turbines (African wind power and a e300 Kestrel) and both have failed after only 2-3 years of use. At this point in time I am wondering if it makes sense for any land based installation to spend money on a mechanical system that is inherently less reliable then a passive system such as photovoltaics. The price for slight increase in number of panels + battery storage seems like would outweigh the hassle of any wind turbine. I assume there must be special cases but otherwise does it make any sense now-a-days?

My 2 cents. Give up on small wind.

Like I tell my customers "I know with a very high certainty the solar array we install today will still be churning out KWH 20 years from now, most likely with zero maintenance. With just as much certainty I know the small wind turbine will give you nothing but trouble and be dead within 5 years" That's the end of the conversation.

 

[Messier11]

My 2 cents. Give up on small wind.

Like I tell my customers "I know with a very high certainty the solar array we install today will still be churning out KWH 20 years from now, most likely with zero maintenance. With just as much certainty I know the small wind turbine will give you nothing but trouble and be dead within 5 years" That's the end of the conversation.

Thanks!

A question, I would be looking for wind that occasionally can fill up my batteries to keep them going 365 days a year (I get no sun from November to March) in my summer cabin. Mostly to keep some web cams going filming the nature, perhaps heating up the batteries a bit.

Do you think it’s hard to even achieve that?

I have been considering putting up a home built turbine that can’t turn pointing either to the North (perfect conditions since on the shore (no salt) and the wind comes directly from the North 15% of the time) or to the South 20% (can also get a good position, but cables must be around 50 meters).


The winter conditions are really tough, but I could basically put a roof on it…

 

[martyfarkle]

I would like a wind turbine, but what I want doesn't seem to exist. I think mine is a special case.

I'd like a portable wind turret that can produce at 12 volts between 10 ah and 20 ah a day, or about 10% of my daily use. That is 120 watt hours to 240 watt hours. This would be to get through the few cloudy days better, and perhaps even extend myself to 4 days with no sun.

Places I go would have enough wind between one and four hours a day. If my RV is rocking back and forth due to the wind, I think there's enough to spin a turret. These winds are the on the edge of the desert mountain winds that pick up for between one and four hours between sunset and sunrise. Next to no wind the rest of the time.

I think, if what I say is even possible, would qualify for what you mentioned as a special case. A generator would certainly be easier and exponentially cheaper, but I don't want that.

I have looked a great deal into Missouri Wind and Solar and they seem to be one of the best I have found but more expensive. Much better than any Chinese rice paper fans. They are US made, as far as I can tell, and sound pretty darn rugged and deliver a heap of power. You have a different controller than solar for the power delivered, as it is so variable, but then you can use whatever batteries/inverter you already have. It delivers AC so you can run the cable a long distance with very little drop in voltage. The cable size is a fraction the size you would need with DC. Then inside your place you use a rectifier to convert it to DC and then it is all the same as from solar. These come in 12/24/48 volt units.
I was looking at a system of turbine and controller (with dump load capabilities) at around $2600, but there are cheaper options.
What have others found? Has anyone actually tried any Missouri products??
Cheers

 

[OzSolar]

Thanks!

A question, I would be looking for wind that occasionally can fill up my batteries to keep them going 365 days a year (I get no sun from November to March) in my summer cabin. Mostly to keep some web cams going filming the nature, perhaps heating up the batteries a bit.

Do you think it’s hard to even achieve that?

I have been considering putting up a home built turbine that can’t turn pointing either to the North (perfect conditions since on the shore (no salt) and the wind comes directly from the North 15% of the time) or to the South 20% (can also get a good position, but cables must be around 50 meters).
View attachment 85824

The winter conditions are really tough, but I could basically put a roof on it…

Having no experience with that situation (no sun for ~5 months) I dare not speak to your best option but I can offer some thoughts.

What sort of home built one are you thinking about? Hugh Piggot's brake drum plans look like a neat way to go but I have no personal experience with them. Mr. Piggot has been doing those work shops for decades all over the world so you should be able to find evidence of just how long they last somewhere. https://scoraigwind.co.uk/ I just noticed that he has some live data logging going! Very interesting. Looks like it made anywhere from 8 to 20 kWH's per day the last week and lifetime total of a little over 3100kWh. No mention of long it's been going though but being able to see the live data is excellent.

Wind sounds the only choice for you but as I think more about the specifics I wonder if your loads are so tiny if you could manage to get several months out of fully charged batteries?? Charge one day per month with a gas generator? Probably unlikely but the idea would be to have more money available for more batteries by not buying a wind turbine. LiFePO4 batteries have essentially no self discharge and are very charge efficient so in general terms the only penalty for oversizing your battery bank is the money.

Locking down the turbine is great both in theory and in practice. That's what the wind farms do to keep their oldest wind turbines going a few more years once their mechanical yaw system fails. I can't put a finger on any supporting detail but from memory turbine can up to 30 degrees from tracking perfectly and have less than a 10% penalty in output.

You'll still have to have a reliable overspeed protection though. The most "reliable" small wind turbines rely on the their tail furling them out of the wind. Keep us posted!

​

 

[OzSolar]

I have looked a great deal into Missouri Wind and Solar and they seem to be one of the best I have found but more expensive. Much better than any Chinese rice paper fans. They are US made, as far as I can tell, and sound pretty darn rugged and deliver a heap of power. You have a different controller than solar for the power delivered, as it is so variable, but then you can use whatever batteries/inverter you already have. It delivers AC so you can run the cable a long distance with very little drop in voltage. The cable size is a fraction the size you would need with DC. Then inside your place you use a rectifier to convert it to DC and then it is all the same as from solar. These come in 12/24/48 volt units.
I was looking at a system of turbine and controller (with dump load capabilities) at around $2600, but there are cheaper options.
What have others found? Has anyone actually tried any Missouri products??
Cheers

Type "Missouri wind and solar complaints" into your favorite search engine and you will find some people who have tried their products.

 

[den2222]

I showed here the video of the "flamingo aero" turbine. But four days ago, the enterprise was seized by the Russian military. And broken, looted, stolen tools. The Russian military is robbers!!!!!!

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Total Cheap and Absolute Crap!

Thanks for wasting my time watching this video which you must not have watched because he says it made no power in 25mph winds.

caveat...never watched the video. simply commenting on your post. all turbines have a range of RPM they work best in. Did you know most wind turbine projects that are cancelled are cancelled due to too much wind? yeah... its harder to control the genset in places where the wind gusts for a period of time... only steady state/stable/ laminar airflow is acceptable for commercial projects. think about it a bit.

 

[wjjones]

"The only small wind turbines that work don't have monitoring".​

I stole that quote from a pier who, like me, tried and tried but never installed or even saw a small wind turbine that really ever worked. "Worked" being defined as actually producing anything close to the expected energy (kwh) over the course over at least several years (heck I like to just see one month) verified by actual monitoring which is a much different thing than watching it hit rated watts for a few seconds during a high wind event.

Rambling rant follows.....

Over the last 30 years I've installed or been around pretty much all of them except the old time Jacobs. That list includes (all?) of the "quality" brands like modern Jacobs, Bergey, XZERES, Proven, Kestrel, AWP, Enertech and a few others. I've never installed one right on the ocean coast but but after speaking to some owners the salt environment eats them alive.

Thankfully I only actively installed small wind for less than 3 years and then realized something was up so just started telling people to call someone else. However since my name was out there for many years to come people would still call me to try to save their project. I'm might take look at some but most people already knew they were skunked and just needed a 2nd opinion. Some wanted to me to buy them but I could only respond with "I wouldn't unless I've got already have a buyer who knows exactly what they are getting into"

The names might change but the story never does so here it goes: Within 3 months of installation its pretty clear that we had been told some pretty big lies by the manufacturer. Within 24 months most have been down at least two times for months or longer and now the warranty process clearly isn't worth the hassle to keep them alive any longer. Then there's a few that managed to still be flying after 5 years. Eventually there's ones last failure and the owner has all lost their taste for the turbine spending more time being repaired than in than in the air.

Keep in mind I'm talking about residential scale stuff as in 10KW or below.

They are good but you don't always have good wind. Good add on though for solar.

 

[OzSolar]

They are good but you don't always have good wind. Good add on though for solar.

I've yet to bump into someone that can make this statement after more than 12 months of actual experience with small wind. Please share the make and model of small wind turbine you are referencing.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

actual experience with small wind

I can’t speak to whatever he meant but the small hand-wound vawts that do milliwatt output can work down to as little as 6mph winds. But that’s milliwatt output! Wind only works where it works- and in northern New England that’s not all the time , for sure. There’s like 14 450’ tall turbines less than a mile from me on a pretty high ridge; they don’t turn all they time.

 

[wjjones]

I've yet to bump into someone that can make this statement after more than 12 months of actual experience with small wind. Please share the make and model of small wind turbine you are referencing.

Yaetek and not 12 months try 5 years. And it's still keeping my battery at 13.2 volts. I'm not using it for a inverter or running home electricity. It runs some lights in the work shop and maintains the battery that's as far as I have needed it for now. Now any more than that and I would go on up on the watts with a bigger turbine.

 

[kampto]

Several years ago I had a Windtura 750w. It was seemingly well built except the cheap 3 wire slip ring. It was more of an experiment to see if it would do anything to help me on on days when panels were covered in snow and cloudy. It barely did anything in the low constant winter winds. Would get some positive input with large gusts to my 24v bank. Then after a few years the rotating slip ring seized and a huge storm broke the top of my mast off and it crashed down, bent up the blades. Its still there on the ground, im sure the heavy 3 phase generator is still in good shape. Waste of money and a learning experience. I could see it somewhat working if you were in a very constant windy area and put it way up on a super strong mast.

 

[OzSolar]

Yaetek and not 12 months try 5 years. And it's still keeping my battery at 13.2 volts. I'm not using it for a inverter or running home electricity. It runs some lights in the work shop and maintains the battery that's as far as I have needed it for now. Now any more than that and I would go on up on the watts with a bigger turbine.

$2,000 for 20kWH per month vs. $2,000 for 200kWh per month?​

I've seen several Yaetek's and NONE of them worked. One of the many cheap knock off's of the already cheap SWP Air 4XX. I saw plenty of those and they all self destructed within months but if they didn't they never produced any significant energy. When compared to the cost and reliability of solar small wind can look pretty ugly.

A 20 watt solar panel would keep a few lights going here and there.

If we ignore that very few Yaetek's (or SWP Air 4XX) will work for 5 years we can then take a look at at the math. It doesn't look like you can buy the Yaetek's anymore by the way.

To purchase something like that turbine today from Primus plus the shortest tower kit (10m) which would be ineffective at 99% of sites plus sourcing the locally required pipe for the tower you are at least $2k and best case will produce 20kWH per month. Some day's it might produce 2 KWh but most days it will produce nothing.

Put that same amount of money into solar and you'll get at least 190 kWh's per month of actual usable and predictable daily energy plus a 25 year warranty on the modules.

I just think it's interesting to actually look at the numbers for small wind.

 

[wjjones]

I was lucky on the pipe part my cousin owns his own welding shop. It's on a 30 ft pole do $80 he had some leftover of the 1/2 wall pipe from a boat mourning dock. It's not dependable it's just a hobby for me. I agree solar for serious power is more reliable and a better investment. I did notice the yaetek is not available anymore. Back when I bought it was $99 so I wasn't expecting to much.

 

[brandnewb]

Personally, I think wind is too much hassle, too much maintenance, too fragile - and noisy. Solar has become so cheap that I don't see the point of putting up a windmill, even if I am not able to use solar here in winter and a wind mill could off-set some of the fuel I use for generator-charging the batteries during these dark months.

it's only a hassle because there is nothing open source yet that actually does what it is designed to do.

I hope to be the first to offer that so hang tight for a decade or 10 as I keep running into issues that hinder prototyping.

But once complete the world may benefit

 

[OzSolar]

I was lucky on the pipe part my cousin owns his own welding shop. It's on a 30 ft pole do $80 he had some leftover of the 1/2 wall pipe from a boat mourning dock. It's not dependable it's just a hobby for me. I agree solar for serious power is more reliable and a better investment. I did notice the yaetek is not available anymore. Back when I bought it was $99 so I wasn't expecting to much.

That's cool. Wow! $99 and still plugging away! That thing deserves a spot in the secret safe with the 500MPG carburetor.

If you have low expectations and low costs from wind that's completely different thing then what I'm constantly warning people about. Keep us updated please!

 

[brandnewb]

"The only small wind turbines that work don't have monitoring".

hahahhahhaha brilliant

and in some ways also disheartening as I am hoping there is some hope for everyone to have some benefit from the wind in the future.