Sodium battery VS Lifepo4 battery

[Rain@]

I recently saw some sodium battery videos on Youtube. I recommended these videos to my friend, and then he said he wanted to DIY a 12V sodium battery pack because he had seen too many videos of lifepo4 catching fire on the Internet!
Regarding sodium battery packs and lifepo4 battery packs, such as 12V 200Ah, which one will you choose?

 

[BentleyJ]

LFP is generally quite safe with regard to being a fire hazard but there are always a few abnormal cases. At this point I would probably choose Li over Na because they have a such a flat voltage curve, prices of LFP are coming down and I'm already familiar with LFP chemistry as far as behavior and longevity.

 

[SeaGal]

I recently saw some sodium battery videos on Youtube. I recommended these videos to my friend...

You recommended something because you saw it on YouTube

Be careful, there's a lot of misinformation out there, unless it came from @Will Prowse of course

 

[TOU47]

I recently saw some sodium battery videos on Youtube. I recommended these videos to my friend, and then he said he wanted to DIY a 12V sodium battery pack because he had seen too many videos of lifepo4 catching fire on the Internet!
Regarding sodium battery packs and lifepo4 battery packs, such as 12V 200Ah, which one will you choose?

LiFePO's catching on fire?!?

A) The batteries that have a history of catching fire & burning uncontrollably is Lithium Ion...NOT LiFePO's...totally different animal & chemistry

B) Not to say it can't or hasn't happen with LiFePO's but it's a pretty rare occurrence considering how many have been sold. I personally have not heard of any. Again Lithium Ion...yes.

C) I can't speak for all LiFePO's but the 2 different LiFePO's that I own, all have built in factory automatic fire suppression systems just in case for the rare occurrence that this could happen.

D) If they were to catch on fire, LiFePO's do NOT behave or burn down uncontrollably the same way that Li-Ion do. Again 2 different animals.

E) If your that concerned, & I'm not, then build a solar block house outside of your house for batteries & inverters... which I am not with the new house I'm currently building off-grid.

F) Na MAY be better... but really aren't a thing on the market yet for my applications. They maybe eventually but for now, I will stick with what is proven & the biggest bang for the buck. For me this is LiFePO's. Specifically LifePower4's & PowerPros from Signature Solar/EG4.

 

[OmoshoManuel]

When it comes to choosing between a sodium battery and a LiFePO4 battery, it depends on what you need. Sodium batteries are known for their high energy density and potential for lower cost, but they're still in the early stages of development, so availability might be limited. On the other hand, LiFePO4 batteries are more established and widely used, offering good performance and longer cycle life. If you're looking for a proven option and don't mind paying a bit more, LiFePO4 could be the way to go. But if you're willing to try something new and potentially save some money, a sodium battery might be worth considering. It's always a good idea to do some research and maybe even consult with a professional to find the best fit for your specific needs. If you want to learn more about batteries and renewable energy options, you can check out https://pknergypower.com/products/15kwh-48v-300ah-best-solar-battery-bank-for-home/ for more information.

 

[paso]

Na batteries are too new to the market. But like all new things they are more expensive at the start. There's little options for us with Na and BMS still need to be proven in my opinion. If the price was close I'd pick Na but they are still unproven with reliability at end user and price difference makes me wait. I think a year or two for Na to take over home diy power banks. Na my understanding is easier with colder temps and that's my concern with Li.

 

[AmpD]

Na batteries are too new to the market. But like all new things they are more expensive at the start. There's little options for us with Na and BMS still need to be proven in my opinion. If the price was close I'd pick Na but they are still unproven with reliability at end user and price difference makes me wait. I think a year or two for Na to take over home diy power banks. Na my understanding is easier with colder temps and that's my concern with Li.

longer life and lighter than lead acid, extreme temperature range, no hazardous off gassing, non-explosive, high charge/discharge rates, environmental friendly and apparently no bms requirement. Pretty much a direct swap for lead acid tech.

Aside from being a currently pioneered technology that doesn’t have a market to fully support it or mass public production in place I’m anxious to see it become more mainstream.

Last year Amazon had motorcycle sized Na batteries available with 3-12 Ah range. Now they have a 50Ah car battery size available.

Some interesting articles on it:

Anode free solid state Na battery

160Wh/kg Northvolt sodium ion battery

Natron Energy started mass production for industrial level in Michigan this year.

Lithium tech was unproven at one point as well. It’s been around long enough to get a following now. One day sodium might be mainstream and Mecazulment batteries will be the rage. Who knows.

To me what matters most is availability and affordability. The environmental impacts are also of concern once the fist two criteria are met.

 

[TomC4306]

Sodium batteries have a very wide voltage range. Accessing the capacity with the current hardware on the market is difficult.
One of nine videos from about 5 months ago.

 

[Newenough]

I find it interesting that most of the videos you find discussing Na batteries are really old "hype" videos. A bunch that are 10-12 months old, then nothing, then a few from 5 to 6 months later, like a bad infomercial, but at least Gotham Copper pans existed.

I know the manufacturers tend to build for commercial applications to fund the consumer applications that follow, but you'd think they would have built a small series of them for people like Will to demonstrate the "awesomeness" of there tech, to secure name rec if nothing else.

Lifepo4 is pretty cheap, and will probably drop more. As others have said, I'll stay with what I know for now. Trying to figure out the "personality quirks" of another battery chemistry hurts my head just thinking about it.

 

[diy 12/24v]

LiFePO's catching on fire?!?

A) The batteries that have a history of catching fire & burning uncontrollably is Lithium Ion...NOT LiFePO's...totally different animal & chemistry

There are only 2 categories of lithium.
1. Lithium. This covers all chemistry that are not rechargeable.
2. Lithium-ion this covers all chemistry that are rechargeable. Lifepo4 is rechargeable so is lithium-ion. The ones you are referring to are lithium-ion that have Cobalt in them

 

[cdsolar]

When currently trusted companies start offering Na batteries, then I'll consider.

Andy at Off Grid Garage has some Na battery content.

 

[Luk88]

I find it interesting that most of the videos you find discussing Na batteries are really old "hype" videos. A bunch that are 10-12 months old, then nothing, then a few from 5 to 6 months later, like a bad infomercial, but at least Gotham Copper pans existed.

I know the manufacturers tend to build for commercial applications to fund the consumer applications that follow, but you'd think they would have built a small series of them for people like Will to demonstrate the "awesomeness" of there tech, to secure name rec if nothing else.

Lifepo4 is pretty cheap, and will probably drop more. As others have said, I'll stay with what I know for now. Trying to figure out the "personality quirks" of another battery chemistry hurts my head just thinking about it.

I was interested in sodium... until I found it costs more than LFP currently.

Personally I think development of sodium got mothballed the moment lithium carbonate dropped below a certain price level maybe a year ago. The main selling point of this chemistry is that they don't need lithium so they can be manufactured everywhere - less dependence on china. Why would Chinese manufacturers promote that? So their angle was always that it will be a cheaper alternative, but as lithium is so cheap right now... it costs them more to produce sodium batteries and it is new tech so less likely to last equally long and so on.

Benefits like discharge to zero V, charge at low temperatures, steep voltage curve etc are nice perks, but they are not main drivers behind sodium. Also I find claims of higher temperature range dubious. It seems the temperature range of currently available sodium cells is simply shifted lower. So yes, you can charge them below 0C, but you can't charge them above something like 30C too. So this is potentially a serious problem. Maybe it comes from abundance of caution on part of manufacturers, maybe it is some inherent limitation of sodium, who knows.

What we known for sure is that unless lithium prices go well up, sodium will see little investment by the Chinese and they are at the top of the battery game right now. I think we'll see solid state lithium batteries sooner than we see sodium be economical.

 

[AmpD]

China has massive Na setups starting to pop up. They are already looking to advance into the Na market.

I don’t recall the name but there is a US startup that has converted a lithium battery plant into a Na production one as well.

I saw andy’s video with the 18650 cells a bit ago.

I’m currently on the battery stage at this point having gathered most of the other components. It can get anywhere from -20-104f where I live. I’m not trying to setup a biodome for my batteries.

I’m not as educated as a lot of you on the subject but I’m definitely reading a lot about batteries. So far I like what I’ve read about Na chemistry batteries. I can’t wait until they are more mainstream. It might not be too much longer. Maybe the recent price drop for lithium is a hint of the coming change. The last year as seen a lot of “action” on the Na scene.

 

[Drunk Engineer]

Anyone know of a company called Energetech in Utah? They are apparently selling 48v 200AH Na battery for $2290. The temperature range as shown on the spec sheet is -40-140F.

If this is legit (I have no idea) then it means price and temperature range are getting quite competitive.

 

[Rocketman]

I have not heard of Energetech but you got me wondering (native of Utah), so I look up their website. The address seems familiar to me- I think it may be owned/same place ,etc. by a company I have gotten stuff from electriccarpartscompany.com. The owner was really nice to talk to - I picked up eight 25ah LiFePo4 cells that I DIYed into a small portable battery 3 or 4 years ago. He has been in business for a long time - but Tesla really killed his business- why diy an electric car when you can buy one.

 

[Luk88]

Also, why would there be "no outgassing" with sodium? They contain an organic electrolyte and energy just like lifepo. If the battery develops internal short(s) it gets hot, the electrolyte boils and you get steam of flammable solvent spewing out.

If it meets an ignition point you get fire. If it makes a specific mixture with air and then meets an ignition point... You get an explosion.

No difference as much as I can tell.

 

[Rednecktek]

All my foreseeable builds will be LiFeP04 for a few reasons:

Usable watts per dollar is better with LFP
BMS support is better for LFP
Availability is better for LFP

I don't use my batteries for shooting range backstops or to test nail guns so the fire aspect isn't a concern. About the only place that Sodium checks the better box is the low temp function and my camp being a few feet deep in snow for months on end, but when you factor in how much of the voltage range I can't use, it's cheaper and easier to stick with the WallyWorld DC29's I've already got up there.

Don't get me wrong, they've got potential, but I've only got so many good years left in me and have to plan and purchase on weird schedules.

 

[houseofancients]

All my foreseeable builds will be LiFeP04 for a few reasons:

Usable watts per dollar is better with LFP
BMS support is better for LFP
Availability is better for LFP

I don't use my batteries for shooting range backstops or to test nail guns so the fire aspect isn't a concern. About the only place that Sodium checks the better box is the low temp function and my camp being a few feet deep in snow for months on end, but when you factor in how much of the voltage range I can't use, it's cheaper and easier to stick with the WallyWorld DC29's I've already got up there.

Don't get me wrong, they've got potential, but I've only got so many good years left in me and have to plan and purchase on weird schedules.

^^^^^ this

 

[Drunk Engineer]

but when you factor in how much of the voltage range I can't use…

The energetech battery has 30-62V operating range. Where are you finding Lifepo4 doing that?

 

[houseofancients]

The energetech battery has 30-62V operating range. Where are you finding Lifepo4 doing that?

Where are you finding inverters and BMS's doing that ?

 

[Drunk Engineer]

Where are you finding inverters and BMS's doing that ?

Multiplus II has 38-66 volt range. The battery comes with a BMS.

 

[outsider]

Where are you finding inverters and BMS's doing that ?

This is just an electrical engineering problem which is straightforward to solve. Excellent inverters and BMSs will start coming out just as soon as there becomes a market need for them.

 

[houseofancients]

This is just an electrical engineering problem which is straightforward to solve. Excellent inverters and BMSs will start coming out just as soon as there becomes a market need for them.

Yeah, like @Rednecktek said that won't be in the foreseeable future....
Not at a non rip off price point anyway

 

[AmpD]

Watts247 is also offering an NA batter with similar claims

 

[Newenough]

Watts247 is also offering an NA batter with similar claims

True. But at twice the LFP price per kw and only 2500 cycles at 50% dod?