Sol-Ark 5k (generator) GEN input vs. GRID, Cleanup on aisle 60Hz

[Outpost_51]

In search of cleaner power while using generator connected to Sol-Ark.

I have a Sol-Ark 5k (3 simpliphi) that I installed myself and currently configured a generator to supply power to the GRID input.

I do not have a switch to run emergency circuits etc. This is not necessary as this (is a tiny) home is completely off-grid and the load is not so large as to need to do this. In fact, the electric water heater will be changed to a smaller one and assisted with a physical solar collector as a booster (someday).

Generator is portable, not dedicated as backup, no auto start. I plug it in on the rare occasion that I will need to top off the batteries after a few cloudy days.

As connected to the GRID input, I'm happy with the way that both the generator and available PV input can supply power to the inverter (providing for the house load) while at the same time providing for the battery charger. I know about charging rates, no warnings needed here. Excellent videos at Simpliphi btw.

Everything works great and I don't need an explanation as to why the inverter follows the frequency of the generator because I know why that is necessary - similar to paralleling generators. But I want to "clean" this up.

My generator "could" be better and does not maintain a perfect speed/frequency and I would rather have cleaner power supplied to the house while I use it.

A good solution might be to buy a better (inverter) generator, I know, but...

I haven't tried configuring the generator to the GEN input and turning on GEN charging.

The question:
If I connect the generator to the GEN input - is it possible to have the supply from the generator used "only" to charge the batteries?

(and there's NO grid...) So what I hope to achieve by doing this is to have the regular "clean" power that is normally output from the Sol-Ark inverter go to the load, while the generator's (not so clean) energy goes "only" to the batteries. (basically- generator to battery, battery to inverter)

Is this configurable? Or will I waste my time trying to make it work?

Thanks.
Mike

 

[629658]

If that’s the route you want to go I’d buy a separate 48v charger to plug into your generator and not attach it to your home at all. Probably a better approach would to look at a better quality generator and leave it as is.

 

[Outpost_51]

That's probably what I'm going to do, eventually get a better Gen.

But I will also look into a secondary charger. Because that will allow me to specifically control the charging amps regardless of other loads.
I'm very careful to stay way below recommended rate for charging. Those batts cost me (3x) 2950 each last year.

The way I'm using it now I have 2 choices:
1. limit the gen to about 80% load with nearly all the power to the batteries ( and not use anything heavy on the load) or,
2. back off some on charging and leave room for more intermittent load/surges from the house.

The first allows me to trim the gen for a more stable speed, but the second allows the gen to handle more of everything combined. but the gen
is not stable as far as speed is concerned. Mechanical governor, fluctuates depending on the load.

Option 1 is best when there's some PV available and I'm running out of solar day and need to catch up (clouds, rain...etc)
Especially if the avail PV is enough to handle any new loads.... which aren't much here.. but a well pump surge will tax the gen without PV assisting.

I'm also going to try and see what difference I can get by using the Gen input.

if I get different results using the Gen input, I'll post those findings here.


Thanks for your input.
Mike

Outpost 51 is completely off-grid in an Arizona desert.
We learn things.
We do things.
We're Made for This.

 

[629658]

So Im not sure the 5k operates the same as the 15k does but I set my charge limits to max (275A) on both grid and gen. I also set a max limit on the battery draw at 4000 watts. I also set limits on Grid and Gen peak draw. I also set my charge time in the TOU settings. We are on TOU rates by choice and we choose each day our Grid charging times (if necessary) to that days lowest utility rates. So when we buy power it is only at the lowest rates for the day. We have a 18kW Kohler generator attached to the Grid input. Currently, my Gen port is empty and I am planning to use that for future AC coupled panels. While charging (Gen or Grid) with the limits set (Peak) we draw up to our specified limits (Gen and Grid) this is shared between actual charging amps and load amps. So the actual charging amps varies a little depending on the loads at the time. This way I can set my limits according to my Gen size and run it at roughly 80-85% capacity. This gives me a decent charge time while covering our loads. Im not sure using your Gen port is going to offer you any benefits since your gen is a manual start. If you have your gen on the grid input I think Id leave it there and use the Gen port as a way to add some AC coupled power in the future. If you want to stay with a manual gen then Id just look for a better gen and probably an inverter Gen. Believe it or not Harbor Freights Predator generators are fairly decent at a reasonable price.

 

[Outpost_51]

It's very odd that we have entirely different weather than we did last winter.
but It's also amazing that even though we have excessive clouding from the side-effects of the storms battering California that I'm getting quite of bit of PV anyway, but I do feel the need to top-off the batteries at times.

I am using a 3500w Harbor Freight gen.... but it's not an inverter type and I watch the Freq. and tweak when necessary.

Before I finished installing my solar,
Last summer, I did buy a larger (harbor freight) one with inverter tech, I liked the way it performed but it had 2 issues.
it did not have a 240 output to eventually connect (properly) to my Sol-Ark. and,
it could not tolerate the (high heat of the) desert environment - the EEC would often fail, causing the engine to operate erratically and shut down at times. I could get it to work by (bypassing) dis-connecting the EEC, but that is ( more than illegal) very unsafe.
The initial reason for the upgrade to this Gen was to be gentler on my mini-splits...but it didn't work out because of the EEC problem.
( I returned it and kept the other one)

If I buy a better Gen, I probably won't get the one at Harbor Freight because I looked at the better units and the EEC is pretty much set up the same way on all of them. I'll take more time and spend more time in the reviews if I'm looking there again...3-4 hour round trip to town for us and half of that is on dirt roads.

Thanks for you input.
Mike

Outpost 51 is completely off-grid in an Arizona desert.
We learn things.
We do things.
We're Made for This.

 

[629658]

It's very odd that we have entirely different weather than we did last winter.
but It's also amazing that even though we have excessive clouding from the side-effects of the storms battering California that I'm getting quite of bit of PV anyway, but I do feel the need to top-off the batteries at times.

I am using a 3500w Harbor Freight gen.... but it's not an inverter type and I watch the Freq. and tweak when necessary.

Before I finished installing my solar,
Last summer, I did buy a larger (harbor freight) one with inverter tech, I liked the way it performed but it had 2 issues.
it did not have a 240 output to eventually connect (properly) to my Sol-Ark. and,
it could not tolerate the (high heat of the) desert environment - the EEC would often fail, causing the engine to operate erratically and shut down at times. I could get it to work by (bypassing) dis-connecting the EEC, but that is ( more than illegal) very unsafe.
The initial reason for the upgrade to this Gen was to be gentler on my mini-splits...but it didn't work out because of the EEC problem.
( I returned it and kept the other one)

If I buy a better Gen, I probably won't get the one at Harbor Freight because I looked at the better units and the EEC is pretty much set up the same way on all of them. I'll take more time and spend more time in the reviews if I'm looking there again...3-4 hour round trip to town for us and half of that is on dirt roads.

Thanks for you input.
Mike

Outpost 51 is completely off-grid in an Arizona desert.
We learn things.
We do things.
We're Made for This.

Good Luck Sir.

 

[RCinFLA]

Grid AC port usually has tighter frequency search range limits than generator port. This speeds up lock time on the tightly spec'd grid freq. If gen is not within this tighter freq range the inverter will not acquire lock on generator.

Generator port will not allow backfeed. Grid port you have to setup to block backfeed to prevent backfeeding generator.

Inverter will not clean up a generator.

Probably a bigger issue than generator out of freq range is a synchronous generator with too much governor rpm stability wobble. Inverter has slow responding phase adjustment and narrow lock bandwidth and will not tolerate much AC frequency wobble due to an unstable generator rpm governor.

Poor generator waveform can cause current peaks in inverter. The inverter will decide when current peaks are too great and release from generator. Never have seen a generator distortion so poor it actually does this, but generator governor stability when a surge load occurs often causes inverter to release from generator.

Make sure you set up AC input current limit so not to overload generator. AC input charging should cut back automatically based on AC input current limit setup if actual charging setup creates greater AC input load current than AC input current limit setting. AC input current limit manages distribution of AC input power between AC output loads and AC input charging with AC loads getting first priority on available AC input current limit.

 

[DIYrich]

It's very odd that we have entirely different weather than we did last winter.
but It's also amazing that even though we have excessive clouding from the side-effects of the storms battering California that I'm getting quite of bit of PV anyway, but I do feel the need to top-off the batteries at times.

I am using a 3500w Harbor Freight gen.... but it's not an inverter type and I watch the Freq. and tweak when necessary.

Before I finished installing my solar,
Last summer, I did buy a larger (harbor freight) one with inverter tech, I liked the way it performed but it had 2 issues.
it did not have a 240 output to eventually connect (properly) to my Sol-Ark. and,
it could not tolerate the (high heat of the) desert environment - the EEC would often fail, causing the engine to operate erratically and shut down at times. I could get it to work by (bypassing) dis-connecting the EEC, but that is ( more than illegal) very unsafe.
The initial reason for the upgrade to this Gen was to be gentler on my mini-splits...but it didn't work out because of the EEC problem.
( I returned it and kept the other one)

If I buy a better Gen, I probably won't get the one at Harbor Freight because I looked at the better units and the EEC is pretty much set up the same way on all of them. I'll take more time and spend more time in the reviews if I'm looking there again...3-4 hour round trip to town for us and half of that is on dirt roads.

Thanks for you input.
Mike

Outpost 51 is completely off-grid in an Arizona desert.
We learn things.
We do things.
We're Made for This.

For non-inverter generator, the Generac XT8500EFI looks interesting. Claims a THD of less than 5%

 

[acsscott]

Not sure about the 5K, but the 12K GEN input does not care about the frequency. I believe the first thing it does is rectify it to DC, then use it to charge the batteries and/or run the inverter load output depending on your settings.

 

[Think About It]

Someone else just recently posted a video about this EG4 "dirty power" charger. It might be just what you need.

EG4 Chargeverter | 48v 100A Battery Charger | 5120W Output | 240/120V Input

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

Perhaps Will can do a video, crack one open for us. It probably has some beefy voltage regulators, capacitators and heat sinks to smooth out the charging voltage. Could put the DC output on a scope and see how clean it is under load.

 

[Outpost_51]

Someone else just recently posted a video about this EG4 "dirty power" charger. It might be just what you need.

EG4 Chargeverter | 48v 100A Battery Charger | 5120W Output | 240/120V Input

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

Perhaps Will can do a video, crack one open for us. It probably has some beefy voltage regulators, capacitators and heat sinks to smooth out the charging voltage. Could put the DC output on a scope and see how clean it is under load.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I can make it work for my specific needs, in regard to the Sol-Ark inverter that I have. I'll check the specs, but at a quick glance, I would think that I could simply use that controller to charge the batteries from the generator,- while the sol-ark is inverting power from PV and battery storage. With full control over the charge cycle, should be a good fit.
Thank you for you input and suggestion.

Strange however, (that you suggest the EG4 product) I just had a neighbor move in a couple weeks ago and after showing him my Sol-Ark setup for "my" off-grid home and demonstrating all the things it does well, and the things it does not, we're looking at (EG4 and other) ideas for a solar solution for his place.
Based on some other problems I've found with the Sol-Ark, it's not a system I would recommend for a true off-grid solution and I'm actually
drafting a review of my experience and may post it online in the future.

 

[Outpost_51]

Grid AC port usually has tighter frequency search range limits than generator port. This speeds up lock time on the tightly spec'd grid freq. If gen is not within this tighter freq range the inverter will not acquire lock on generator.

Generator port will not allow backfeed. Grid port you have to setup to block backfeed to prevent backfeeding generator.

Inverter will not clean up a generator.

Probably a bigger issue than generator out of freq range is a synchronous generator with too much governor rpm stability wobble. Inverter has slow responding phase adjustment and narrow lock bandwidth and will not tolerate much AC frequency wobble due to an unstable generator rpm governor.

Poor generator waveform can cause current peaks in inverter. The inverter will decide when current peaks are too great and release from generator. Never have seen a generator distortion so poor it actually does this, but generator governor stability when a surge load occurs often causes inverter to release from generator.

Make sure you set up AC input current limit so not to overload generator. AC input charging should cut back automatically based on AC input current limit setup if actual charging setup creates greater AC input load current than AC input current limit setting. AC input current limit manages distribution of AC input power between AC output loads and AC input charging with AC loads getting first priority on available AC input current limit.

I was well into all the settings as you described including the limiters. I WAS concerned about backfeeding ( i.e. if the gen ran out of gas when I wasn't there) so I appreciate that you mentioned that the Gen input will prevent that. I will move the generator to the gen input for that reason next time I go in the cabinet. Thank you for your comments and suggestions.

 

[Think About It]

Based on some other problems I've found with the Sol-Ark, it's not a system I would recommend for a true off-grid solution and I'm actually
drafting a review of my experience and may post it online in the future.

Perhaps. I installed a Sol-Ark 15. I truly believe that this was the best product for my use case. Is it perfect? No, nothing is. I firmly believe that the issues that I have with it will be corrected soon with software updates and RGM compliance. I would say my experience was both good and bad. The biggest issue being too many novice tech support reps that are not familiar with the complexities of the inverter no less able to grasp my issues. That being said, if I was going to do it over again would I use the Sol-Ark? Yes. It's definitely the best product in its class, and the best product for my use case.

Regarding the EG4. I actually use SOK batteries. I like that they are user serviceable. I don't have anything against EG4. They are a very reputable battery. There is definite a need for a good "dirty power" charger. I agree, the Sol-Ark can probably handle the generator on the GEN input.