Sol-Ark and batteries

[Tulex]

I would offer the OP a bit of a different perspective. Most of the contributors here (although wonderfully generous with their knowledge) are what I would call “solar diy hobbyist/enthusiasts”. Some people just want a reliable system they can build and support and don’t want to worry about every last amp going in/out. I have a SolArk and 34kwh of Trophy batteries that are not in closed loop. Because my system has a lot of unattended time at low draw on the battery bank, the BMS do not register even close to accurate SOC. I am now using a victron shunt and I think I have a much better gauge of the bank’s true SOC.

For me, closed loop isn’t needed, and I don’t think it would benefit me much, in my situation. (The truth is I could never get it to work with the Trophy batteries and I gave up in frustration, but the batteries have been wonderful for over a year now)

This leads back to my original post in that it's hard to get solid basic info. I really do appreciate opinions. Sometimes that's all one has to work with. But, I believe this is an area that can be clarified to remove opinion.
I believe most of these "solar diy hobbyists/enthusiasts" are indeed very knowledgeable. I've learned as much from such people in all of my DIY projects as I have from pros. And, some of these people are also pros.
That being said, I believe there should be the ability to state whether or not closed loop with BMS is beneficial, not as an opinion, but as a fact. Sol-Ark works with companies to create this ability. I'm assuming Sol-Ark is doing this because it can use the info to better manage the batteries.
If indeed this is the case, it's a base to work from. A person can then make a decision of what is important to them. But until a simple fact can be established, it's hard to know if one needs to care.

So, your last sentence. Reminds me of what I have been reading about class A batteries that are really class B or worse. One might not know they were duped until a few years into use. I know I can set my unit up to just work. But, if closed loop does actually allow Sol-Ark to better manage the batteries, I may just be able to avoid turning my class A batteries into class B batteries.

So, again, I do appreciate your opinion. I just believe much of this doesn't need to be opinion based.

 

[mvonw]

This leads back to my original post in that it's hard to get solid basic info. I really do appreciate opinions. Sometimes that's all one has to work with. But, I believe this is an area that can be clarified to remove opinion.
I believe most of these "solar diy hobbyists/enthusiasts" are indeed very knowledgeable. I've learned as much from such people in all of my DIY projects as I have from pros. And, some of these people are also pros.
That being said, I believe there should be the ability to state whether or not closed loop with BMS is beneficial, not as an opinion, but as a fact. Sol-Ark works with companies to create this ability. I'm assuming Sol-Ark is doing this because it can use the info to better manage the batteries.
If indeed this is the case, it's a base to work from. A person can then make a decision of what is important to them. But until a simple fact can be established, it's hard to know if one needs to care.

So, your last sentence. Reminds me of what I have been reading about class A batteries that are really class B or worse. One might not know they were duped until a few years into use. I know I can set my unit up to just work. But, if closed loop does actually allow Sol-Ark to better manage the batteries, I may just be able to avoid turning my class A batteries into class B batteries.

So, again, I do appreciate your opinion. I just believe much of this doesn't need to be opinion based.

Well, in my case, my statements are based on demonstrable facts that many BMS do not accurately report useful SOC back to the inverter (i use Solar Assistant and it does communicate with my batteries now, so I see that), so dynamic adjustments by any Inverter (not just SA) are not going to be meaningful.

Like with all complex systems, the answer is nuanced (ie "it depends"), you just aren't going to get a definitive, universally meaningful answers until you understand all the factors at play. For my situation, closed loop would be nice if it worked as intended, but since it doesn't I'm not obsessing on it..

 

[houseofancients]

Well, in my case, my statements are based on demonstrable facts that many BMS do not accurately report useful SOC back to the inverter (i use Solar Assistant and it does communicate with my batteries now, so I see that), so dynamic adjustments by any Inverter (not just SA) are not going to be meaningful.

Like with all complex systems, the answer is nuanced (ie "it depends"), you just aren't going to get a definitive, universally meaningful answers until you understand all the factors at play. For my situation, closed loop would be nice if it worked as intended, but since it doesn't I'm not obsessing on it..

did you check the dip switch and cable config in the seplos manual in the resources section ?

as to your "diy " statement :
1. this is a diy forum
2. these "approved" solutions most times are based on a paid approval process, which has nothing to do with actual tech specs.

the question here should be, if something works with the same equipment, with just a different brandname, but otherwise exactly the same, seems far fetched it wouldn't work

 

[Tulex]

No...it doesn't work that way. Solar Assistant is recieve only; it can't send or relay real-time operational data to BMS's or inverters.

I asked Solar Assistant before your reply, this is their reply that I just received, which confirms your statement about Sol-Ark, but contradicts it in general.

"More information that might be useful: If your inverter can't read the battery, after installing SolarAssistant it will still operate on voltage and not on state of charge, meaning for all purposes the inverter is still not reading the battery. SolarAssistant will show you detailed information from the inverter and battery, but won't make the inverter think it's reading a battery."

"With other inverters we do what you are looking for, which is why you most likely read on the forums that we make it possible. In terms of doing adding support for it on the Sol-Ark, such a feature is currently under consideration. In the future it might be possible to achieve "closed loop" communication between your Sol-Ark and DIY batteries via SolarAssistant."

 

[629658]

As usual I come down on the “it doesn’t matter” camp. I picked the battery build quality, value and support over anything. At one point I thought I had to have a commucating battery. But nope not really. I have been operating a 15k for 6 months now without closed comms. Has never been an issue. I have a substantial bank of batteries so I’m not walking a tightrope. I have plenty of capacity and seldom get below 60% SOC.

Buyer beware on the EG4 stuff do a forum search on EG4 and Signature Solar. Be prepared it going to take a while. Still cannot understand the rush to buy them. Better options are out there at practically the same price.

Also design you pack ahead of time with future expansion in mind. Also consider the cost of wire, busses, lugs and time to put in each pack. 100Ah batteries seem nice but think of the expense and physical space they take.

I just installed 4 additional batteries over $400 just for wire and hardware. A few hours cutting and crimping cables. It all adds up. It would take 18.5 of your EG4’s to replace my pack. Big money! And I have no idea where I’d put 18-19 EG4’s. Not even mentioning the possible future issues with all the additional electronics involved. Chances of a failure with 18 BMS’s vs 8. Chances of issues involving connections? Remember each connection is a potential point of failure so 36 connections vs 16. All things one needs to evaluate.

So my best advice is to plan ahead.

 

[mvonw]

did you check the dip switch and cable config in the seplos manual in the resources section ?

as to your "diy " statement :
1. this is a diy forum
2. these "approved" solutions most times are based on a paid approval process, which has nothing to do with actual tech specs.

the question here should be, if something works with the same equipment, with just a different brandname, but otherwise exactly the same, seems far fetched it wouldn't work

With respect to DIY, I don't think that is a one-size-fits-all appellation. It all depends on your level of interest, available time, knowledge, and level of abstraction. My brother is a particle physicist and was explaining the math behind quantum electron superposition with respect to electrical energy flow (not my field, I'm a stochastic modeler!). His level of abstraction is very deep. I just want my batteries to work in my DIY system, I don't have to have built the batteries myself. You may enjoy it!..

As for the DIP switches, my bats connect fine with Solar Assistant, but not the Solark (it's probably something stupid on my part). That's not the issue for me. Because my bank is somewhat large for the typical amp draw, the BMS are programmed not to register under a 2 amp draw, which means my batteries can be down to 50% actual SOC, but the BMS thinks and report out that it has 90% SOC. I've learned subsequently that a lot of BMS's are setup this way. Now that I know that, I just rely on the smart shunt.

 

[houseofancients]

With respect to DIY, I don't think that is a one-size-fits-all appellation. It all depends on your level of interest, available time, knowledge, and level of abstraction. My brother is a particle physicist and was explaining the math behind quantum electron superposition with respect to electrical energy flow (not my field, I'm a stochastic modeler!). His level of abstraction is very deep. I just want my batteries to work in my DIY system, I don't have to have built the batteries myself. You may enjoy it!..

As for the DIP switches, my bats connect fine with Solar Assistant, but not the Solark (it's probably something stupid on my part). That's not the issue for me. Because my bank is somewhat large for the typical amp draw, the BMS are programmed not to register under a 2 amp draw, which means my batteries can be down to 50% actual SOC, but the BMS thinks and report out that it has 90% SOC. I've learned subsequently that a lot of BMS's are setup this way. Now that I know that, I just rely on the smart shunt.

assuming it is a 10c seplos bms.
using closed loop with you inverter , would require you to set canbus as default, and will disable rs485 ( and thus SA , fortunatly no longer an issue in the 10e version of the bms).
also would require a custom cat5e cable, with white-blue, blue and green on pin 4,5 and 6 on the rs45 on inverter side

 

[houseofancients]

I asked Solar Assistant before your reply, this is their reply that I just received, which confirms your statement about Sol-Ark, but contradicts it in general.

"More information that might be useful: If your inverter can't read the battery, after installing SolarAssistant it will still operate on voltage and not on state of charge, meaning for all purposes the inverter is still not reading the battery. SolarAssistant will show you detailed information from the inverter and battery, but won't make the inverter think it's reading a battery."

"With other inverters we do what you are looking for, which is why you most likely read on the forums that we make it possible. In terms of doing adding support for it on the Sol-Ark, such a feature is currently under consideration. In the future it might be possible to achieve "closed loop" communication between your Sol-Ark and DIY batteries via SolarAssistant."

see my last 2 posts in Post in thread 'Solar Assistant Wish list, Bugs and Issues.' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/solar-assistant-wish-list-bugs-and-issues.34195/post-754192

 

[Tulex]

With respect to DIY, I don't think that is a one-size-fits-all appellation. It all depends on your level of interest, available time, knowledge, and level of abstraction. My brother is a particle physicist and was explaining the math behind quantum electron superposition with respect to electrical energy flow (not my field, I'm a stochastic modeler!). His level of abstraction is very deep. I just want my batteries to work in my DIY system, I don't have to have built the batteries myself. You may enjoy it!..

As for the DIP switches, my bats connect fine with Solar Assistant, but not the Solark (it's probably something stupid on my part). That's not the issue for me. Because my bank is somewhat large for the typical amp draw, the BMS are programmed not to register under a 2 amp draw, which means my batteries can be down to 50% actual SOC, but the BMS thinks and report out that it has 90% SOC. I've learned subsequently that a lot of BMS's are setup this way. Now that I know that, I just rely on the smart shunt.

Let's compare this to wiring your home. I can follow all the NEC rules and know I will end up with the same general configuration as anyone else. I can use many different brands, but still the same safe result. I can wire my home following NEC, or have the electrician do it. The inspector is going to pass it just the same. But the only way I can wire it to NEC is to know the important parts of NEC. My wiring job might not look like an electricians, but the critical parts will be met.

So yes, DIY solar can look like a million different things. But, there are some basics that won't differ. I'm simply trying to nail down those basics.

 

[629658]

With respect to DIY, I don't think that is a one-size-fits-all appellation. It all depends on your level of interest, available time, knowledge, and level of abstraction. My brother is a particle physicist and was explaining the math behind quantum electron superposition with respect to electrical energy flow (not my field, I'm a stochastic modeler!). His level of abstraction is very deep. I just want my batteries to work in my DIY system, I don't have to have built the batteries myself. You may enjoy it!..

As for the DIP switches, my bats connect fine with Solar Assistant, but not the Solark (it's probably something stupid on my part). That's not the issue for me. Because my bank is somewhat large for the typical amp draw, the BMS are programmed not to register under a 2 amp draw, which means my batteries can be down to 50% actual SOC, but the BMS thinks and report out that it has 90% SOC. I've learned subsequently that a lot of BMS's are setup this way. Now that I know that, I just rely on the smart shunt.

I 100% agree. I have not seen the BMS misreporting SOC but I do know as the pack size increases they start acting differently. From you description I’m assuming your using Trophy. I have them also and love them. I just doubled my pack size and can see the differences. I also think a shunt is even more important once you start getting big packs.

 

[Tulex]

Below is my email and reply with Sol-Ark. Very simplified, but gotta start somewhere. Two things stand out to me.

My 15K is on the way. I'm looking into batteries. I've been on the DIY Solar forum trying to understand/verify the following. Sol-Ark can communicate closed loop with partnered batteries. Without closed loop, I am relying on the Battery BMS to manage the batteries. Some DIY BMSs will work closed loop with Sol-Ark. I have seen some Batteries that are not on our list being used in closed loop communications, in my experience they usually work for a time but eventually start throwing errors and, unfortunately, we do not offer support for their integration.

Is closed loop really just meant to be more of a plug and play setup? It is alittle more Involved and specific to the battery, you can see our battery integration guide here for how the set up usually works.

My understanding is that with open loop, I have to provide Sol-Ark with the parameters. Yes, you would enter them all in the battery set up menu.

I have to monitor the battery myself, either with something like Solar Assistant, or the BMS software if available. In Open loop, The Sol-Ark will create an Algorithm and have its own read out of the batteries state of charge, many of the Sol Arks settings are based off of that reading. Additionally, our energy monitoring platform "Powerview" will let you track state of charge readings. Third party monitoring like Solar assistant tend to have a level of detail on the power monitoring that some people prefer.

I guess my question is, just how much does closed loop matter to Sol-Ark/how much will my batteries benefit from it, and how much info is really provided and used in closed loop. The most beneficial part of Closed loop is that it offers the most accurate State of Charge reading possible for that individual battery model. Which has the added benefit of being good for the batteries long term health.

Can Sol-Ark manipulate the BMS in closed loop to do a better job than the BMS can do alone, or is it really just to read the BMS to know when the BMS has done it's job. The Sol-Ark in this sense, more, follows the batteries lead rather than the other way around. Just recently we had a guy in closed loop claiming his batteries were not charging at the rate they were supposed to, but he was in closed loop and we could see that was simply the rate the batteries BMS was calling for. The Inverter does decide when it gets charged and how much it discharges through time of use, but it will all be based off of the reading the batteries BMS will give it.

Please let me know if you have any further questions or need me to elaborate on something.
Thank you,

 

[houseofancients]

right, smells like "made in usa"," designed in usa" and more nonsense that was given in the past

anyway, everybody needs to do whatever they choose and want

i can only comment on my previous inverter(s) and current 2* sunsynk 12k' that have worked flawless together with my seplos setup from the first time i connected them

 

[Ampster]

smells like "made in usa"," designed in usa" and more nonsense that was given in the past

I used to be critical of those claims. Despite that there were other features which the SolArk offered that were more important to me than some marketing hype so I upgraded to a SolArk and have been very happy. In addition, I needed a UL listed inverter.

I also agree with the following

everybody needs to do whatever they choose and want

 

[houseofancients]

I used to be critical of those claims. Despite that there were other features which the SolArk offered that were more important to me than some marketing hype so I upgraded to a SolArk and have been very happy

oh, dont get me wrong , the devices themselves are fantastic ( although i can only judge by my sol-ark 16 equvalents sunsynk 12k 3 phase and the few Deye' s i've helped friends with)

i also understand Sol-Ark is doing a wonderful job to support their customers.

given the above, it just makes me not understand other behavior, but we've been through that many times, and wont go there again.

point is, if a bms/battery is certified for Deye, or sunsynk, they will work for sol-ark just as good, as they are , with some market and branding specifics , exactly the same

 

[Ampster]

point is, if a bms/battery is certified for Deye, or sunsynk, they will work for sol-ark just as good, as they are , with some market and branding specifics , exactly the same.

In my case my BMS was not certified for Deye or Sunsynk but it was listed as working with SolArk via a Victron emulation in the BMS. I would presume my BMS would then work with Deye or Sunsynk.

 

[houseofancients]

In my case my BMS was not certified for Deye or Sunsynk but it was listed as working with SolArk via a Victron emulation in the BMS. I would presume my BMS would then work with Deye or Sunsynk.

correct

 

[David S]

That being said, I believe there should be the ability to state whether or not closed loop with BMS is beneficial, not as an opinion, but as a fact. Sol-Ark works with companies to create this ability. I'm assuming Sol-Ark is doing this because it can use the info to better manage the batteries.

Yes, closed loop is beneficial. Fact. Assuming the BMS is decent, getting SOC data, along with charging parameters from the BMS is useful and beneficial. That said, is it required? No.

In my case, I am using a Sol-Ark 15k with HomeGrid batteries. The BMS on the HomeGrid instructs the inverter on how it wants to be charged/discharged based on temperature of the battery, SOC and other conditions. This ensures that the battery is being run as efficiently as possible. In addition, the BMS on the HomeGrid understands if it is in parallel with another BMS and can request different charging/discharging rates therein. YMMV with a different BMS, but these benefits are clear and factual.

There are some lower priced server rack batteries that are "listed" by Sol-Ark on their batteries page (e.g. SOK) and some that are verified to work but not listed, like EG4. If you look here: Sol-Ark battery guide you'll notice that it describes generic CAN communications setup, including cable diagrams. In general, the Sol-Ark will read any properly implemented CANbus battery implementation.

I have also successfully setup Solar Assistant to read the BMS information directly from the HomeGrid battery via RS485. It works, but the inverter data is better formatted in Solar Assistant, so I just use the inverter values.

One other thing: Solar Assistant is NOT read only with the Sol-Ark. It can change effectively any setting in the Sol-Ark over the CANbus connection. I thought I saw somewhere in the thread the assertion that Solar Assistant was read only. It's not.

 

[houseofancients]

Yes, closed loop is beneficial. Fact. Assuming the BMS is decent, getting SOC data, along with charging parameters from the BMS is useful and beneficial. That said, is it required? No.

In my case, I am using a Sol-Ark 15k with HomeGrid batteries. The BMS on the HomeGrid instructs the inverter on how it wants to be charged/discharged based on temperature of the battery, SOC and other conditions. This ensures that the battery is being run as efficiently as possible. In addition, the BMS on the HomeGrid understands if it is in parallel with another BMS and can request different charging/discharging rates therein. YMMV with a different BMS, but these benefits are clear and factual.

There are some lower priced server rack batteries that are "listed" by Sol-Ark on their batteries page (e.g. SOK) and some that are verified to work but not listed, like EG4. If you look here: Sol-Ark battery guide you'll notice that it describes generic CAN communications setup, including cable diagrams. In general, the Sol-Ark will read any properly implemented CANbus battery implementation.

I have also successfully setup Solar Assistant to read the BMS information directly from the HomeGrid battery via CANbus. It works, but the inverter data is better formatted in Solar Assistant, so I just use the inverter values.

One other thing: Solar Assistant is NOT read only with the Sol-Ark. It can change effectively any setting in the Sol-Ark over the CANbus connection. I thought I saw somewhere in the thread the assertion that Solar Assistant was read only. It's not.

solar assistant is using rs485 , but shares the bms comms port on newer models of the inverter ( sol-ark 15k, deye 12k single phase 230/ deye 12k 3 phase 230 , sunsynk 12k single phase, sunsynk 12k 3 phase 230v)
the reason people state sa is read-only is because it states so on the SA website :

Configuring Deye/SunSynk/Sol-Ark inverter

How to configure a Deye/SunSynk/Sol-Ark inverter in SolarAssistant.

solar-assistant.io

 

[Tulex]

One other thing: Solar Assistant is NOT read only with the Sol-Ark. It can change effectively any setting in the Sol-Ark over the CANbus connection. I thought I saw somewhere in the thread the assertion that Solar Assistant was read only. It's not.

Solar Assistant, in an email to me, said it can not yet send info to Sol-Ark. My post #24 in this thread. If it can, they should probably tell their people at Solar Assistant.

 

[houseofancients]

Solar Assistant, in an email to me, said it can not yet send info to Sol-Ark. My post #24 in this thread. If it can, they should probably tell their people at Solar Assistant.

i just tested today it can ( at least for the TOU) , but i am running a beta version, so that could be just it