Solar Generators are not Generators

[mrzed001]

It depends which argument you want to use.

I will take it to my grave that the electrolyte is consumed in the context that once discharged it no longer is what it previously was and requires a restorative process. The only difference between a battery and a fuel tank is the battery maintains the constitute components within itself and the process to reverse the reaction is vastly more efficient. Moving ions in/out of a substance changes that substance.

I get your argument. In the anode and cathode covalent bonds are made and braked down.

Burning fuel changes that substance, albeit a bit less conveniently.

It is a rapid oxidation.
But while in a battery the ion's movement directly generates electric energy ... a fuel does not.

 

[Mcgivor]

@mrzed001 said But a battery is an energy storage device. You charge it up with electric energy. You get direct electric energy out of it. And the battery (any part of it) is not consumed. Ions move inside. Also a closed environment.

Personally I would agree and disagree with this statement, lead acid batteries have plates which are consumed over time through shedding, the material however remains contained and therefore is a closed environment of the original material.

Leclanche cells have sacrificial anodes, once consumed they are effectively dead, but all residue remains contained within the case. These are often used as a last resort backup to other chemistries which are grid chrged, they are activated by adding water, but once activated they cannot be reversed, the common zinc carbon dry cell is another form of such cells.

Neither would be considered a fuel, per se, as all the residue would still contain all the original material only in a different chemical form within the container. The internal combustion engine's residual chemicals on the other hand are released to atmosphere, perhaps it could be argued that the planet is the ultimate container, which also is a closed loop, the question would be, which is the easier to recover.

However I digress.

 

[Short_Shot]

I get your argument. In the anode and cathode covalent bonds are made and braked down.


It is a rapid oxidation.
But while in a battery the ion's movement directly generates electric energy ... a fuel does not.

So you're saying a battery generates electricity huh?

Like a generator?

So either a battery is like a generator because it generates electricity or it doesn't generate electricity because neither of them generate anything and instead convert energy to other forms.


I'm either case they are then equivalent by your own arguments lmao

"Directly" is irrelevant. The battery doesn't "directly" create electrical energy. It utilizes an interaction between two different components to extract energy from the system which is aided by an electrolyte.

It's very literally a chemical based electrical generator because it converts one form of energy to another useful one.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Seriously: this isn’t a scientific argument.
It is semantics.

A battery is no more of an energy storage device than gasoline, or a rock on the edge of a cliff. And a battery is no less of an energy storage device than gasoline, or a rock on the edge of a cliff.
Energy is nothing unless it effects something else.

Another semantical anomaly (like trees falling silently in the forest when there’s no one around) is we can probably say there’s only a few base forms of low-order energy: chemical, nuclear, mechanical, radiation... Electricity is just the transfer of electrons with their own characteristics and “power” that have one of the other energy forms as an initial source to release or instigate electrons moving one place to another.

The point is IF a generator was defined specifically as a wire-wound motor mechanically rotated to induce the movement of electrons then solar generator would be “wrong.” But like Band-Aid and Kool-Ade(-aid) they are different things; nobody tries to dissolve plastic bandages in water to create a drink- we know the difference. We don’t think semi trucks (known as tractor-trailer rigs) work on a farm, nor do we picture a John Deere tractor pulling 50-foot trailers on the highway.

We will never be able to rewind the market proliferation of ‘solar generator.’ Like it or not we know what it is.

 

[Short_Shot]

But like Band-Aid and Kool-Ade(-aid) they are different things; nobody tries to dissolve plastic bandages in water to create a drink- we know the difference.

Well.

Actually.

Bandages are often made with vinyl just like disposable gloves are. Therefore technically someone has factually tried (and succeeded) to dissolve the equivalent of bandaids into water to create a drink.

 

[Mcgivor]

Well.

Actually.

Bandages are often made with vinyl just like disposable gloves are. Therefore technically someone has factually tried (and succeeded) to dissolve the equivalent of bandaids into water to create a drink.

This is becoming stupid, enough said.

 

[curiouscarbon]

Hydrocarbon : fart and coulomb generator?
Solar : coulomb generator?

 

[Short_Shot]

This is becoming stupid, enough said.

Idk man. That video is actually pretty clever.

 

[stienman]

This discussion is literally pointless.

The idea that we, reasonably competent experts in the field, are confusing people by using the word "generator" when only experts are even aware that it's narrowly defined is hilarious.

We don't need to change our usage of the word generator due to some semantic technicality that only we understand or care about.

Those who want to do so, for whatever reason, can if they want. Language evolves. They can even start discussions such as this one to suggest everyone adopt their point of view and actively alter the language within communities.

But the point of language is to communicate a concept, and the words "generator" and "generation" are sufficient for that in this context.

Every power source has limitations. If one isn't aware of a limitation and finds it naturally, they will ultimately learn the limitations of their chosen power source. Even if you change the word or phrasing they aren't going to understand the inherent limitations - you have to actually explain them, in every case. A diesel generator cannot use gas. A gas generator must not store fuel long term without stabilizer, and should have its carb cleaned occasionally. Power transmission at any distance is subject to weather, accidents, squirrels, and backhoes.

If you can communicate the concepts needed to use the power source to the user, then it doesn't matter what words you use.

Using generator allows you to build these concepts on top of a foundation they probably already have in their mind, which reduces the amount of effort to communicate the concept, and reduces misunderstandings. Even when you communicate a power source's limitations, they aren't going to integrate it perfectly into their understanding, and they will run into issues and learn, in practice, what the limits are. Use a different phrase or word, and you'll end up eventually explaining, like an idiot, that "it's like a generator, but there's no moving parts." All you've accomplished it wasting everyone's time when you could have used the best common word from the start.

The only reason to suggest a word or phrase change is to build on top of a better existing foundation.

Pedantry alone is not a good reason to suggest a name change.

So if your argument has to do with the dictionary definition, and you don't demonstrate that a better foundational word exists for the majority of the population which they will understand immediately, then there's no point in replacing the original word.

 

[Supervstech]

The bottom line about this argument is people don’t like the inconsistent use of the word generator.

it is ridiculous.

There is ALWAYS another way to look at it, the devices are similar, in output, and end use.

Gas is chemical energy storage, the battery is chemical energy storage AND conversion… so, I guess the battery takes the place of a fuel tank, AND the combustion motor… the inverter takes the place of the pure sine inverter in an ice generator… and as always, the solar panel takes the place of the fuel station…

There will always be people that can disagree with a term… it is very sad that so many of them are on this forum.

 

[mrzed001]

The bottom line about this argument is people don’t like the inconsistent use of the word generator.

it is ridiculous, and here on the forum it needs to stop.

There is ALWAYS another way to look at it, the devices are similar, in output, and end use.

Gas is chemical energy storage, the battery is chemical energy storage AND conversion… so, I guess the battery takes the place of a fuel tank, AND the combustion motor… the inverter takes the place of the pure sine inverter in an ice generator… and as always, the solar panel takes the place of the fuel station…

There will always be people that can disagree with a term… it is very sad that so many of them are on this forum.

People that disagree with a term… it is sad they are on this forum ?
This last line ...
I am sure you do not wanted it to sound like it sounded.

 

[Short_Shot]

More importantly, that kid turned vinyl into grape soda.

 

[Supervstech]

People that disagree with a term… it is sad they are on this forum ?
This last line ...
I am sure you do not wanted it to sound like it sounded.

Words are read how they are read.

This forum is for promotion and proliferation of solar energy use. The FOUNDER of this site has stated the term solar generator for the device is proper and valid.

So many people focus on the word generator and resist the term, and make multi page posts arguing their point.

The people that resist any discussion or explanation and refuse to compromise that the term is indeed valid. Instead focus on micro terms and argue unendingly on definitions of a word.

I guess the sad part is not that those people are on this forum as much that people joining this forum should be about helping join the solar community… not about bashing a common term around perceived definitions.

 

[mrzed001]

OMG!!! This is clearly putting out words to incite anger… your post is far out of line.

Yes, I am in anger. I am a cool dude who already suffered losses because wording like that.

 

[Short_Shot]

Yes, I am in anger. I am a cool dude who already suffered losses because wording like that.

You took it way beyond context homie.

 

[Supervstech]

Yes, I am in anger. I am a cool dude who already suffered losses because wording like that.

I am quite sorry you were cyberbullied. But for the same reason the term rose colored glasses applies, people really need to to avoid making rash statements on perceived arguments.
I wonder if there is a term for it similar to “rose colored glasses”

 

[Supervstech]

When I read a post, I always try to read between the lines, I try to word a post to convey logic and reason.
someone with an agenda can ALWAYS see or interpret a post badly.

“The sky is blue” doesn’t always mean the world is sad… sometimes it just means no clouds on a sunny day…

 

[mrzed001]

I am quite sorry you were cyberbullied. But for the same reason the term rose colored glasses applies, people really need to to avoid making rash statements on perceived arguments.
I wonder if there is a term for it similar to “rose colored glasses”

I can take a lot, does not bother me. I said losses.
So if I see someone taking in that direction I stop them at any cost.

 

[Gazoo]

Language evolves.

Exactly and you hit the nail on the head. How many years ago was the word generator defined? I have no problem redefining the word generator to apply to solar generators.

This thread has turned into a CF IMO and should have been closed when the discussion turned to drama and personal attacks. At this point this thread is useless. Having said that, I am fine with calling a solar generator a solar generator. Who the hell cares...lol

 

[Supervstech]

I can take a lot, does not bother me. I said losses.
So if I see someone taking in that direction I stop them at any cost.

In the future, if you see a post leaning towards cyber bullying, hit the report link. A mod, or will himself will step in and deal with the post.
It is NEVER a good idea to post something like that in the thread.