Solar house generator I started DIY back in 2000 - My path from Trace to Xantrex (on FLA battery) to XW Pro inverters on Tesla Model S batteries

[400bird]

I guess that means you are on a tiered rate plan now? What are the rates going to be after the upcoming change and what are the TOU rates?

How much power do you use in the winter? If you can make it through peak rates times year round, you are probably right and would be better off on the TOU plan.

 

[dougbert]

I guess that means you are on a tiered rate plan now?

no, starts June 1st

What are the rates going to be after the upcoming change and what are the TOU rates?

the rates are spelled out in the letter shown in the picture

How much power do you use in the winter? If you can make it through peak rates times year round, you are probably right and would be better off on the TOU plan.

Starting last Sep when the rains started. This past winter was abnormally stormy. We had record amounts of snow in our mountains, over 900 inches in places

Month	Bought- kwh	Generated-kwh	Percent Solar Production	Events
Sep	6	1045	98.54	fall begins
Oct	171	800	82.8	weather begins with less sun
Nov	566	198	26	3 weeks on grid for inverter swap
Dec	585	400	41	lots of clouds and snow
Jan	487	517	51	more clouds and snow
Feb	229	614	73	LOTS of snow
Mar	96	834	89	more sun available
Apr	5	985	99.49	grid turned off

I have enough battery for 2 days w/o sun

April to October, I am effectively off-grid as the system provides 100% of my needs

so my plan for the winter, is to re-charge after 10pm when battery gets too low @ 7,2 c/kwh, and charge just enough to get through the night in order for the next day's sun and re-charge on solar. that should cover most cases

I can use the inverter's CHARGE block/start to only allow charging in off peak times, and set the voltage levels of charging actions. Need to install the battery monitor device and switch to SOC metrics instead of voltage.

I currently have 9 kw of solar and plan to fill out my 4th array for a system total of 12.5 to 13 kw over time into the future in order to generate more solar energy in the winter and seek to become 100% off grid all year long. Also to add more battery storage. Would like to have 4 days of backup power.

 

[dougbert]

Finally installed the 100 amp main breaker in the CLP once I got a time slot from my wife where I could shutdown power, took half an hour

and began filling in wires into the generator 6 space service panel. Placed it on top of the raceway, in the center. When 2nd XW Pro is installed the panel will be under the XW Pro. Incoming vents on the XW Pro are on the front bottom panel of the XW, so air flow should be fine

Ran #4 wires from that panel to the 2 60 amp generator breakers inside the PDP. Each of those 60 amp breakers will feed 1 XW Pro

Used a spare 80 amp QO breaker on the #4 wires. Will use #4 all the way out to the generator - who knows, I might get a 15kw generator someday. and it is 50 ft to the generator spot.

Added a 30 amp 240 v receptacle on that generator panel as well. So I can use grid or generator to run a 30 amp generator circuit to feed a future EG4 Chargeverter.

That leaves 2 more slots in the panel, which I just filled with a 60 amp QO breaker I had.
Might install a 50 amp receptacle and a 50 amp breaker from the generator, for the fun of it.

l will work my way upstream to the generator from the panel, by adding conduit and wire over time until I finally get to the generator location out side

Next NEW wire will be the #2 from the Grid service panel upstairs down to the grid 6 space on the upper left.
28 feet of distance, with 3 wires cost is some $220. That is from

2 AWG THHN/THWN-2 Building Wire

Enter the desired footage below:

www.wireandcableyourway.com

This is the cheapest I have found, though shipping starts at $22. Copper price is getting bad. Already got the ground wire.

Current picture of the AC side and inverter with new generator panel.

 

[AKvalleyguy]

For those who have followed this thread know my system is NOT NetMetering connected. For 2 reasons:

1) I don't like it - too much control for my liking
2) My local utility "circuit" is currently maxed out and no new NetMetering customers can connect

For us here in AK it's very cut and dried. There is no net metering, only a poke in the eye. They pay $0.06 per kWh and charge $0.21. Takes a lot of kWh's to make anything at $0.06. Even so, there are properties feeding into the grid and getting their nickel and a penny.

 

[Hedges]

$0.21 - $0.06 = $0.15 they charge you to store power.

I think server rack batteries might get down to $0.05/kWh over 6000 cycles, 16 years. If they last that long.
Add to that cost of inverter system that works with the batteries, either powering load or shaving consumption from grid.

Nothing that can store power until winter.

I don't think paying $0.15 to store power from summer for use in winter is so bad, reasonably competitive with any storage you might use for day vs. night.

But you can't make power much less than $0.06. Simply buying power for $0.21 makes the most sense.

If you have a steady daytime load, like water pumping or A/C, then GT PV with or without zero export. DIY for about $0.03/kWh, err on the side of shaving consumption to save more kWh at $0.21 even though you'll export more at $0.06 sometimes.

You can wish you paid $0.25 to $0.50 like us Californians, so you could save money with PV?

 

[dougbert]

when my son started Netmetering they did the one-for-one plan

so this month all Netmetering clients are auto switched to TOU and the power company pays 9 cents per kwh, not bad considering above posts

 

[Hedges]

TOU and they pay $0.09 regardless of time?
Or, by storing in batteries, can he get a larger credit backfeeding at peak times?

I think California's terms are either NEM 2.0 (which closed to new applications April 14th 2023) credits 1:1 and requires TOU...

... or NEM 3.0 credits a fraction of retail, or maybe some kind of wholesale (a transition period, I think) but both TOU and tiered plans available.
There may be a couple peak hours where backfeed is valuable, credited around retail.
One stated goal was to encourage consumers to install storage.

 

[AKvalleyguy]

You can wish you paid $0.25 to $0.50 like us Californians, so you could save money with PV?

I thought we had it expensive, that's heinous!!

I failed to mention we are not hooked into the grid at our house. The electric company wants approximately $75K to get their power cord to the property.

The thing about living at 61.60 N Latitude, we only have around 6 months of full sun. Another 3 months we almost keep the batteries charged and the remaining 3 months is covered with a generator. Unfortunately the 6 months of good solar gain has lately been shadowed by the solar geoengineering that's currently happening up here.

 

[Hedges]

$75k, pffft!

I spotted 12kV (?) 3-phase on the pole 150' from my house.
I inquired about service upgrade to 3-phase, which would require hanging a transformer and running 200' of wire to pole on other side of my house.

After getting past PG&E's initial response that I wasn't eligible for 120/208Y based on loads (minimum 50kVA), by showing I met their rules for 120/240V high-leg delta (3 HP motor), they moved on to price:
Two trucks with crews for two days plus material, $150,000.

So I'll stick with single phase, get 200A service. That's shared with neighbors, hopefully therefore borne by the utility.



Solar is tough in the frozen North. Do you have any hydro potential?
How about the solar to carbohydrate to heat path?




Is Solar Geoengineering already a thing?!

Solar geoengineering - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AKvalleyguy]

$150K !! My complaints are weak. The distance from the power pole to property is way further than 150'.

Hydo, I could only dream. 100 plus acres and nothing more than a stream that flows only during the spring thaw. Which occurs right when we are just starting to get hammered with solar.

How about the solar to carbohydrate to heat path?

We heat with wood, if there is something more I can be exploring please let me know. If it involves tree, well, that's one thing in abundance

Solar geoengineering, alas, I think so. The short story (my observation). Former commercial pilot. I've never observed what I'm seeing these last few months. Lower altitude aircraft emitting "contrails" that do not dissipate, rather turn into a murky haze layer. There is a guy in a Facebook group I'm in who works up here for a weather mod company and has in his profile, something like, I fly around all day spraying stuff in the air. When I first heard locals talking about it I thought I was captured in an old episode of Art Bell's Coast to Coast AM with people talking about chem trails. I wouldn't have believed it and It sounds crazy until you pull up a chair in the yard and watch it all unfold.

I'll just get back to tending the Ranch and thinking simpler thoughts for a while

 

[dougbert]

TOU and they pay $0.09 regardless of time?
Or, by storing in batteries, can he get a larger credit backfeeding at peak times?

I think California's terms are either NEM 2.0 (which closed to new applications April 14th 2023) credits 1:1 and requires TOU...

... or NEM 3.0 credits a fraction of retail, or maybe some kind of wholesale (a transition period, I think) but both TOU and tiered plans available.
There may be a couple peak hours where backfeed is valuable, credited around retail.
One stated goal was to encourage consumers to install storage.

they are just implementing all of this, this june 8th

back in the picture of the letter above https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...to-xantrex-to-xw-pro-inverters.11/post-786032

they say $.090 per kwh

I had similar thoughts

 

[dougbert]

Finishing up with the new 100 amp #2 Grid feedline install. Previously, I installed #6 awg from the grid service panel into the inverter. That was done 10+ years ago when I was running the Trace SW4024 120v inverter - one phase only. At that time I NEVER thought I would eventually install dual XW Pro's with some continous 14,400 watts of service capability. Well, that will be implemented in the near future and the grid feed line needed upgrading.

This required replacing the old 1" conduit with 1-1/4" conduit to hold the 4 #2 wires. It is only some 25 ft from the grid panel to the 3 2-pole panel of the AC switching gear. BUT it goes through some narly joists and crawl space. Any way, where are some pictures of the nearly finished install

a Before pic with the #1 conduit (with #6 wire) entering the top of the panel (upper left with the large white wires #2)



After pic with the 1-1/4" containing the #2 wire and landed



pic of the conduit heading up to the joists and through 2ft of old space between the rooms. Old section of house is 93 years old (1930). "New section" was built in 1947 and there is where most of the conduit runs





and it runs into the crawl space beyond



The tight fit access into the crawl space

 

[dougbert]

Here is on the other side of the joist in the crawl space, where the conduit enters



moving along side another Conduit



and the far north wall where the conduit turns 90 degrees up to enter a panel - can see the white and green going up where the conduit will be installed. They are there temporarily providing ground and neutral to main panel



And a shot of where the conduit comes down from above. More conduit to be installed tomorrow



And a shot of just below panel #3 (Critical Loads Panel for the old circuits in the house). the New bigger conduit is the one on the right. The one on the left is power from the main CLP panel #2 in the basement - powered by the inverter - to energized panel #3



and panel #3, HOMLINE I installed just few years ago. The old circuits of the old panel above it, land here, using circuit extensions. There was NO room other than putting panel #3 just below panel #1. Nothing left or right, so I had to extend circuits through panel #1, using it as a junction box.

 

[dougbert]

And the main Siemens panel I installed 25 years ago - this is going to be updated with a new panel (Square D Homeline) shortly after this current project is done

I am going to redo all those extensions I did 10+ years ago when I added the solar panel, with better looking layout - so please save comments on that nest, lol




The SER line comes in from the following





some misc shots of the crawl space. It used to be very tight in there, until a couple of months ago, I started digging a portion of the floor down some 15 inches to allow my movement therein.

Also working on replacing the 93 year old sewer line of cast iron, which is leaking - not good

 

[dougbert]

Spent most of the day, prepping the Main Panel for a swapout.

I installed this panel 25 years ago to replace the old 4 FUSE circuits in this old house.

When I added the lower Critical Loads Panel (CLP) a few years ago, I had to extend the 8 circuits that came in from TOP of the old panel. I extended them down into the CLP panel below the old panel I installed 25 years ago, in order to put those 8 circuits onto the inverter output

Here is the old panel with the 8 extended circuits - L1, N and grounds were all extended, as it was when I started today. Too much clutter



Here is the same panel with 8 circuits refactored with just the HOT conductors, extended to the CLP. The grounds and the neutral were re-landed in old panel to reduce the number of wires extended. Common ground and neutral throughout the system

These grounds and neutrals will be landed in to the new panel when I finally perform the swap

The HOT conductors will be routed through a 2" conduit in the space between the panels, down to the lower CLP



inter panel space and top of the lower CLP




Here is the lower CLP now, 5 extended on the left and 3 extended on the right. All tagged for ID
Once the old is swapped out, I can then land the #2 out going conductors



and an overview of both panels and the HOT conductors in a temporary positions outside the panels

 

[dougbert]

While waiting for the ground bus bars to come in, for the new service panel, I unpacked and installed my new EG4 Chargeverter

Found a nice space on the power wall to put it, and close to the L14-30R receptacles
and yes I am going to add a heat/air reflector to the left of the left vertical conduit to redirect the hot air away from the conduit



The Chargeverter's AC cord was too short to reach the Grid AC L14-30R receptacle where it was originally mounted, up high. So I moved it lower and now the plug can reach BOTH the Grid AC receptacle AND the Generator receptacle

I proceeded to mount the charger on the wall and I added some spacers so the Chargeverter is some 1/3" away from the wall to allow a bit more air around the back side. I then connected the battery leads. I did have to cut off the 5/16" lugs and installed 3/8" lugs to fit my bus bars. Flipped the breaker and set my target VOLTS and AMPS for my battery.

Now need to wait until I get the upgraded Grid AC IN lines landed in order to test the charger. And we are waiting on those ground bus bars to arrive so I can install the new service panel.

 

[dougbert]

With the new Chargeverter installed, it will be possible to charge the battery with BOTH the XW Pro charger and Chargeverter at the same time. Why is another question.

Max would be 10kw charging. Either both from the Grid or one on on the Grid and the other on the future generator. And the battery will support it. It can receive 12kw, 240 amps

 

[dougbert]

Finished the main panel swapped today by completing the extensions of the 8 circuits through panel #1 and into panel #3

here is the old siemens panel, ripping the circuits out



conduit adapters inserted



sheet rock above cut out
8 circuits for extension, 3 circuits that land in the main panel



pulling old panel box
since this occurred over several days, I kept the 8 circuits in by pass mode

 

[dougbert]

I know TMI, but I am documenting this as well as sharing it

New Square D panel installed and mains landed, oven circuit landed, Jacuzzi tub circuit landed.

SPD installed, 30 amp breaker installed for dryer receptacle - no dryer.
90 amp breaker for sub panel #2 - supplying power to inverter
60 amp breaker for future EV charge port
and 2 spare tandem 20 amp breakers



8 + 3 circuits installed and secured



all circuits landed that terminate in main panel, including conductors to inverter





Critical Loads Panel - sub panel #3

 

[dougbert]

Finally ALL 8 circuit extension circuits are spliced together with butt joints and heat shrink applied and conductors placed inside panels

insulation installed back





ready for sheet rock fix ups




BEFORE: old Siemens panel with extensions using wire nuts. I extended the HOT, NEUTRAL and GROUND wires to the next panel back then.

Now I land NEUTRAL and GROUND in the new panel and only extend the HOT to subpanel #3



AFTER: finally shot of new main panel - looks far better than old panel and wiring, tried to do a good looking project
old panel did not have disconnect inside it, this new one does - I like having the ability to cut power to the box RIGHT THERE
this has a 125 amp disconnect, same as the main service disconnect located outside near meter

I am using a 90 amp breaker to feed inverter because I had it in parts bin. Someday I will get the 100 amp breaker.
For now, with only 1 XW Pro, the 90 amp will be just fine, as 1 XW Pro won't draw much.
#2 awg should handle the 100 amps if I ever need that much

this part of the project upgrade was a bear for me. SO glad it is completed.

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