diy solar

diy solar

Storing heat in sand?

Bought two end-of-run 415W panels for $280 ea - Longi LR5-544HPH - 21% efficient, half-cell, backwash-diode-equipped, and only about 200M from the guy I was buying the barrels from. Driving down tomorrow morning.

Bought two 2100W 200mm spiral elements for $29 ea
Bought some insulated 4" ducting and an inline 12VDC fan
Dug out some L298N DC speed controllers - I can hopefully use the same ESP that is running the thermocouples to do double-duty as DC speed controller for the inline fan.
Ordered some floor registers (vent plates) for hot air outlets. I've gone with two sizes - 85mm x 400mm for baseboard vents and 80x150mm for floor vents.
Ordereed a solar panel meter tool for testing panels, etc. It will come in handy over the next few years enough to justify the $100 cost. I could use a multimeter - I have a bunch of them - or my clamp meter, but this makes it so easy with the built0in MC-4 connectors and preset programs for testing.

I got a tip for steel cutting for a bloke in the next town just starting out with his home-based waterjet who will cut the baffles for a reasonable price. Submitted the vector files - will wait for a price.

I'm at around NZ$850/USD500 spent so far, with only the cost of the plates to come, but not including the stuff I already had on hand - motor controllers, ESPs, cable, MC-4 connectors, etc.
 
Do you really not get that he is talking about the source of power being DC? Of course the induction side is AC. I haven't been following along that closely and immediately understood that "DC induction heater" meant "induction heater powered by DC".
I do not like to imagine what people are supposedly saying, "DC induction" is a non sense; i do not even go farther.
 
Imagination isn't necessary. It was clear by the context.
I think it's a a bad idea to use shortcuts when they imply incoherent ideas, it's that then the guy talk gibberish and you have to decode (and imagine what he meant).
Words have their signification : "DC induction" is a non sense, thus be banned from every inteligent discussion. Specially when it's one of the brick of a bigger idea ... then where are we going ?
 
Storing thermal energy in an insulated box containing sand is, for me, a bad idea for those reasons :
1 - Specific heat capacity of water (4000 J/K/kg) is 4.5 times the sand one (850 J/K/kg) => Even if you heat sand at a higher temperature there is still a big margin. Sand weight something between 1500 kg (dry) and 2000 kg (wet) per cubic meter, for a same volume of material (water/sand) you get a 1.5x to 2x factor in favor of sand. That still, for a same volume, a factor of (4000/850)/1.5 = 3.1x (dry sand) and 2.3x (wet sand)

2 - Water like all fluids, is subject to convection currents. In a vertical tube, hot water rise and cold water sink In a vertical tank full of calm water there a gradient of temperatures, hot at the top, cold at the bottom => you can have water at 90°C at the top and 10°C at the bottom AND even after hours, it will stay a gradient.

3-cuve-de-ballon-de-sotckage-thermique-cfd.png.webp

stratification-eau-chaude-accumulation-ballon-ecs.jpg


The advantage of this... you can inject thermal energy in one point and it will "stratify", it's easy to know when youir battery is empty or full : Empty = Low temperature at the top, Full = high temperature at the bottom.

3 - It kind meet the first reason, sand will need to be heated at high temperature, the delta between the inside temperature and the outside one will be pretty high and this will imply higher loses.

4 - Even if the op build a sand storage... he will still need water or air tubes to convey the heat somewhere usefull.

I will give my case, cause i though of it before building my house, i got a 1000l thermal tank, it contain something like 40kWh of energy when full, i can take a shower or heat my house with the energy stored in it. I can heat it with PV panels or with my wood heater. It's very flexible !
 
I think it's a a bad idea to use shortcuts when they imply incoherent ideas, it's that then the guy talk gibberish and you have to decode (and imagine what he meant).
Words have their signification : "DC induction" is a non sense, thus be banned from every inteligent discussion. Specially when it's one of the brick of a bigger idea ... then where are we going ?

Yes, I shall hense forth and with great haste be banned from further "inteligent" discussion... You've made my day. :)
 
I think it's a a bad idea to use shortcuts when they imply incoherent ideas, it's that then the guy talk gibberish and you have to decode (and imagine what he meant).
Words have their signification : "DC induction" is a non sense, thus be banned from every inteligent discussion. Specially when it's one of the brick of a bigger idea ... then where are we going ?
There is nothing incoherent about an induction heater with a DC power supply. He specifically was talking about using solar to power his induction heater, a DC induction heater. I think you're just being obtuse.
 
Storing thermal energy in an insulated box containing sand is, for me, a bad idea for those reasons :
1 - Specific heat capacity of water (4000 J/K/kg) is 4.5 times the sand one (850 J/K/kg) => Even if you heat sand at a higher temperature there is still a big margin. Sand weight something between 1500 kg (dry) and 2000 kg (wet) per cubic meter, for a same volume of material (water/sand) you get a 1.5x to 2x factor in favor of sand. That still, for a same volume, a factor of (4000/850)/1.5 = 3.1x (dry sand) and 2.3x (wet sand)

2 - Water like all fluids, is subject to convection currents. In a vertical tube, hot water rise and cold water sink In a vertical tank full of calm water there a gradient of temperatures, hot at the top, cold at the bottom => you can have water at 90°C at the top and 10°C at the bottom AND even after hours, it will stay a gradient.

3-cuve-de-ballon-de-sotckage-thermique-cfd.png.webp

stratification-eau-chaude-accumulation-ballon-ecs.jpg


The advantage of this... you can inject thermal energy in one point and it will "stratify", it's easy to know when youir battery is empty or full : Empty = Low temperature at the top, Full = high temperature at the bottom.

3 - It kind meet the first reason, sand will need to be heated at high temperature, the delta between the inside temperature and the outside one will be pretty high and this will imply higher loses.

4 - Even if the op build a sand storage... he will still need water or air tubes to convey the heat somewhere usefull.

I will give my case, cause i though of it before building my house, i got a 1000l thermal tank, it contain something like 40kWh of energy when full, i can take a shower or heat my house with the energy stored in it. I can heat it with PV panels or with my wood heater. It's very flexible !


Now I want to measure temps with my laser probe on my sand canisters...... Sand does not have the cnvective currents that water does. thus the heat should not move out the same way..... Sand is insulation when dry it does make me wonder I wanted to run an experiment with mason jars that I pull a vacuum on if I was to use these jars to insulate a box, I am curious how that would compare to a box with mason jars with no vacuum.... I have been looking at how to make my own vacuum insulation as it is the best from what I have heard.
 
Vacuum is, in theory, the perfect insulator. But, as with most things, the real world gets in the way. The materials you will make your insulated object out of will probably have more of a say in energy conservation than how perfect the insulator is.

At various points in your build there are going to be uninsulatable points where electric cables intersect, where fasteners hold the structure together, etc.

Perfect being the enemy of good, I believe rockwool or fibreglass wool insulation is going to insulate a sand battery to a level good enough that your losses are minimal.

There's only one way to find out... and the main reason for me using three thermocouples and their associated wireless data capture. If I can't hold enough energy between 5pm and 7am the next day then my insulation is not up to the task, but I have seen that a basic insulated wooden box is good enough. I intend to wrap the whole thing in a metalised mylar blanket to reduce air convection losses as well.

Given the operating model, where you heat it up, then tap it, heat then tap, rater than heat and store for some later use, perfect insulation is, in my opinion, a rabbit-hole not worth pursuing.

While I'm modelling, I'm analysing the cost of driving to the beach with sacks and a shovel for 300kg of sand, with getting some bloke with a truck to deliver it. The cost is mostly of the 'Can I be arsed?' variety. :)

Given that Aaron will deliver half a cubic metre of builders sand (2mm) for $60 - the cost of the sand and the delivery - and dump it on the edge of my garden, I'm prepared to cut my analysis short and just go with what costs me the least in future chiropractic costs...
 
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Don't experiment.
Start a business making thermal storage systems.
Take business trips to the beach, armed with a shovel.
Heck, you may even need a new electric pickup truck to transport business materials.
(and if thermal storage doesn't work out in the end, you can fall back on lithium.)
 
Storing thermal energy in an insulated box containing sand is, for me, a bad idea for those reasons :
1 - Specific heat capacity of water (4000 J/K/kg) is 4.5 times the sand one (850 J/K/kg) => Even if you heat sand at a higher temperature there is still a big margin. Sand weight something between 1500 kg (dry) and 2000 kg (wet) per cubic meter, for a same volume of material (water/sand) you get a 1.5x to 2x factor in favor of sand. That still, for a same volume, a factor of (4000/850)/1.5 = 3.1x (dry sand) and 2.3x (wet sand)

2 - Water like all fluids, is subject to convection currents. In a vertical tube, hot water rise and cold water sink In a vertical tank full of calm water there a gradient of temperatures, hot at the top, cold at the bottom => you can have water at 90°C at the top and 10°C at the bottom AND even after hours, it will stay a gradient.

3-cuve-de-ballon-de-sotckage-thermique-cfd.png.webp

stratification-eau-chaude-accumulation-ballon-ecs.jpg


The advantage of this... you can inject thermal energy in one point and it will "stratify", it's easy to know when youir battery is empty or full : Empty = Low temperature at the top, Full = high temperature at the bottom.

3 - It kind meet the first reason, sand will need to be heated at high temperature, the delta between the inside temperature and the outside one will be pretty high and this will imply higher loses.

4 - Even if the op build a sand storage... he will still need water or air tubes to convey the heat somewhere usefull.

I will give my case, cause i though of it before building my house, i got a 1000l thermal tank, it contain something like 40kWh of energy when full, i can take a shower or heat my house with the energy stored in it. I can heat it with PV panels or with my wood heater. It's very flexible !
You are ignoring that sand-based heat storages can store many times the amount of energy that can be stored in a water tank of a similar size or, put another way, you need 2000x the mass of water to store the same amount of energy as you can at moderate (1/3 the maximum pre-phase-change-temperature) in sand.

The whole ethos behind a sand battery is as a high-temperature and high-capacity energy store. If you don't want or need high temperature or high capacity, don't use it.

But, for high energy storage in a small volume at a minimal cost, water can't compete.

The cost disparity between a vessel that can store an equivalent amount of kJ of energy in water and sand is high.

Then you've got insulation costs, piping costs, etc. which purely from the size of the water reservoir vs that of sand is many times greater.

Focusing on the specific energy storage only, overlooks the key benefits of sand as an energy storage medium - that being price, compactness, ease of application.

Water has a specific heat of 4.19 kJ/LoC
Sand has a specific heat of 1.336 kJ/LoC (using L rather than kG as size is important - just ask my wife!)

At 600C 1L of sand has 801kJ of stored energy and can hold 1000C more -or 2137.6kJ of stored energy before the silica sand fuses.
At 99C (the highest you can go with water without a phase change) 1L of water has 414kJ of stored energy, and can't go any higher at ambient pressure.

So, to store the same amount of energy as 200L/320kg of sand at 600C - 160MJ - you would need 386,490L or 38CuM of water at 99C - 2000 x the volume.

(its 11pm - my math could be flaky)

Something else I haven't worked out is how you get the energy out of water.

Say you have 500W of solar heating a 2000W element in 1 CuM of water. You start out at ambient temperature of 5C and want to warm a house. Warming the house means getting a room to, say, in excess of 18C you need to store 54,470kJ

You won't have enough hours in a day to raise 1000L of water to 18C using a 500W panel - which can create around 2kW per day of sunshine or 7200kJ

54,470kJ / 7200kJ = it will take 7.5 days, assuming negligible losses due to extremely efficient insulation

After you have reached 18C in your 7.5 days of generation, what happens when you tap that heat? If you pull more than 7200kJ, you are taking more than you are putting in and going backwards.

So you need more energy generation.

The very thing that you posited as a positive ends up, compared to sand, to be a negative - convection means you need to heat the entire mass of water to get any benefit of the energy stored, where the carrying capacity of sand is such that what you store is very hot near the element, dropping inversely squared the further you go from the source of energy. Unlike water, you can get 18C out of the sand close to the element much easier and if you don't use it all, the heat keeps building and being stored at 100% efficiency. It's only when the entire mass of sand becomes saturated with energy are you going to see losses due to imperfect insulation.

To conclude - you describe things in terms of 'good' and 'bad', where I look at them in terms of overall effectiveness for the task required.

in the case of heating air to warm a dwelling, sand has an unparalleled price/performance ratio and a huge capacity advantage over water.
 
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To further expand on the above - while plagiarising the Finns:

Resistive heating of sand is essentially 100% efficient, but the efficiency is inevitably lowered by heat loss through the boundaries of the system. However, there are several ways sand tackles this problem.

1. Since sand is a solid material, the heat is transferred inside the storage only by conduction. As the heat conductivity of the sand is rather low, the outer parts of the storage act effectively as insulators for the core and thus there always is considerably steep radial temperature profile inside the storage.

Simply put, unlike for water-based storages that have constant temperature everywhere, the outer layers of a sand-based heat storage have temperatures much below the average temperature of the system and the heat does not flow effectively from core to the outer layers and finally to the ambient space.

2. Obviously, even if the sand has the self-insulating property described below, we use good amount of conventional insulation at the boundaries of the system.

3. The heat transfer pipe system inside the sand allows us to prioritise the boundaries when discharging the storage and prioritise the core when charging the storage.

This means that even if some of the heat is about to be conducted to the outer layers, we can make use a good proportion of it instead of it getting lost. For the heat charged to the core of the system it takes very long time to reach the boundaries.

4. The scale of the storage affects a lot to the efficiency. This is so, because a smaller storage has more surface area compared to its volume than a bigger one, and the heat loss is essentially proportional to the surface area.

Simply put, the core of the storage can hold the heat for very long time without it getting lost, and the core is bigger for bigger storages.

On a domestic scale, in a sunny, temperate country, with high winter solar kWh/m2, using high-efficiency (>20%) panels, feeding a well-insulated sand battery, price/performance is superior to water.

In my case I have completed my primary parts list for US$500. For that I have 830W of generation into ~1200W of resistive load at 96V into an energy store with a capacity of 160MJ.

In a perfect world where everything is free, water is a more efficient medium, but I live in a world where I need to pay for things I want and where there are physical limits on the implementation due to available space in the house I actually live in.

Water is not an option - for me - due to budget, space and access limits, thus water is not a superior method of storage.
 
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There is nothing incoherent about an induction heater with a DC power supply. He specifically was talking about using solar to power his induction heater, a DC induction heater. I think you're just being obtuse.
This is not what i said.
 
You are ignoring that sand-based heat storages can store many times the amount of energy that can be stored in a water tank of a similar size or, put another way, you need 2000x the mass of water to store the same amount of energy as you can at moderate (1/3 the maximum pre-phase-change-temperature) in sand.

The whole ethos behind a sand battery is as a high-temperature and high-capacity energy store. If you don't want or need high temperature or high capacity, don't use it.

But, for high energy storage in a small volume at a minimal cost, water can't compete.

The cost disparity between a vessel that can store an equivalent amount of kJ of energy in water and sand is high.

Then you've got insulation costs, piping costs, etc. which purely from the size of the water reservoir vs that of sand is many times greater.

Focusing on the specific energy storage only, overlooks the key benefits of sand as an energy storage medium - that being price, compactness, ease of application.

Water has a specific heat of 4.19 kJ/LoC
Sand has a specific heat of 1.336 kJ/LoC (using L rather than kG as size is important - just ask my wife!)

At 600C 1L of sand has 801kJ of stored energy and can hold 1000C more -or 2137.6kJ of stored energy before the silica sand fuses.
At 99C (the highest you can go with water without a phase change) 1L of water has 414kJ of stored energy, and can't go any higher at ambient pressure.

So, to store the same amount of energy as 200L/320kg of sand at 600C - 160MJ - you would need 386,490L or 38CuM of water at 99C - 2000 x the volume.

(its 11pm - my math could be flaky)

Something else I haven't worked out is how you get the energy out of water.

Say you have 500W of solar heating a 2000W element in 1 CuM of water. You start out at ambient temperature of 5C and want to warm a house. Warming the house means getting a room to, say, in excess of 18C you need to store 54,470kJ

You won't have enough hours in a day to raise 1000L of water to 18C using a 500W panel - which can create around 2kW per day of sunshine or 7200kJ

54,470kJ / 7200kJ = it will take 7.5 days, assuming negligible losses due to extremely efficient insulation

After you have reached 18C in your 7.5 days of generation, what happens when you tap that heat? If you pull more than 7200kJ, you are taking more than you are putting in and going backwards.

So you need more energy generation.

The very thing that you posited as a positive ends up, compared to sand, to be a negative - convection means you need to heat the entire mass of water to get any benefit of the energy stored, where the carrying capacity of sand is such that what you store is very hot near the element, dropping inversely squared the further you go from the source of energy. Unlike water, you can get 18C out of the sand close to the element much easier and if you don't use it all, the heat keeps building and being stored at 100% efficiency. It's only when the entire mass of sand becomes saturated with energy are you going to see losses due to imperfect insulation.

To conclude - you describe things in terms of 'good' and 'bad', where I look at them in terms of overall effectiveness for the task required.

in the case of heating air to warm a dwelling, sand has an unparalleled price/performance ratio and a huge capacity advantage over water.
Your numbers are all of the place ...

600°C .. even more .. 1000°C, build your system and show me the numbers you're at ..

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"Say you have 500W of solar heating a 2000W element in 1 CuM of water. You start out at ambient temperature of 5C and want to warm a house. Warming the house means getting a room to, say, in excess of 18C you need to store 54,470kJ"

What is this example with 500W of panels .. who will use 500W of panels for a 1000l tank ?
Where do you get your numbers .. it's a joke ? You are a journalist for sure, not a scientist, this example is useless.
Where those 54,470kJ come from ..?! There is no parameters like ... size of the house maybe ?
Avoid throiwing numbers that got 0 meaning. Build something logic and show me the result.
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"At 600C 1L of sand has 801kJ of stored energy and can hold 1000C more -or 2137.6kJ of stored energy before the silica sand fuses.
At 99C (the highest you can go with water without a phase change) 1L of water has 414kJ of stored energy, and can't go any higher at ambient pressure."


1l sand at 600°C store 801kJ, 1l of water at 99°C store 414kJ you said => that's a 2x factor ... in 1l of medium i can store 2x more energy in sand then in water.

"So, to store the same amount of energy as 200L/320kg of sand at 600C - 160MJ - you would need 386,490L or 38CuM of water at 99C - 2000 x the volume."
How come that you need 2000x the volume in water then in sand to store the same amount of energy ..?
200L sand => 200*801kJ = 160MJ
200L water => 200*414kJ = 82MJ

That's less then a 2x factor in volume why would you swap to kg now ?
Didn't you said :
(using L rather than kG as size is important - just ask my wife!)
I asked her and she said the proof that it is not is that she married you.

Even then, in weight (with your numbers)
To store those 160MJ you would then need 160/82*200 = 390kg of water instead of 320kg of sand.
320kg sand => 200*801kJ = 160MJ
390kg water => 160MJ
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Water has a specific heat of 4.19 kJ/LoC
Sand has a specific heat of 1.336 kJ/LoC (using L rather than kG as size is important - just ask my wife!)

At 600C 1L of sand has 801kJ of stored energy and can hold 1000C more -or 2137.6kJ of stored energy before the silica sand fuses.
At 99C (the highest you can go with water without a phase change) 1L of water has 414kJ of stored energy, and can't go any higher at ambient pressure.

So, to store the same amount of energy as 200L/320kg of sand at 600C - 160MJ - you would need 386,490L or 38CuM of water at 99C - 2000 x the volume.

This would be the case if your application is to melt ice floating in water (0C).
If it is to keep a room at comfortable 25C, 99C - 25C = 74C delta, 310kJ storage.
If heating water (from whatever incoming temperature) to 49C (120F), 50C delta from storage tank, it is 210kJ
Of course, if potable you could use the water directly. And if incoming water is colder than 25C (but it is likely not below 0C), you energy storage capacity between the two figures. For the specific purpose of heating incoming water.

Instead of 0C, if you compare it to 0K (-273C), then delta of 372C and 1559kJ.
Perhaps that would be useful if you ever needed to thaw a block of solid hydrogen (liquid is 25K)

Point being that you must consider delta between temperature of storage tank and lower temperature you are letting the energy flow to.
Which swings the needle in favor of higher storage temperatures.

With 99C water heating 25C room, the modest temperature delta doesn't allow efficient extraction of mechanical energy.
I think the theoretical limit is (Tstorage - Tsink)/Tstorage, where temperatures are in Kelvin, but I'm not finding it right now.


With your sand at several hundred degrees Celsius, you could allow heat to flow though a steam engine, releasing heat to the room while extracting some energy with a mechanical shaft. That could spin a generator or otherwise power a heat pump, providing additional heat energy to the room if ambient isn't too low.

Thermal storage of power plants is a thing, whether it is cost-effective or not.


(its 11pm - my math could be flaky)

OK, you're forgiven.
 
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