diy solar

diy solar

Storing heat in sand?

Heating sand is rather like wave energy.... a good idea but will never come to anything.
... but .... if the colder water continued to fall instead of suddenly reversing it's properties and starting to becoming less dense .... the cold water would continue falling to the bottom and freeze the lake from the bottom up.
There was a video on yt of this happening recently....will post when i find it!
Edit:
Not pure water but heavy brine!
 
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Steam could be used to transfer heat from a fire to the sand. Getting heat back, would be hot water not steam.
Not practical to store heat as steam (need pressure or volume).
Things that phase change solid to liquid are more attractive. But at easy to handle hot temperatures, nothing particularly economical.
Ice for cold, molten salts for extreme heat.

OP's idea of sand seems practical (and he may have it lying around.) Maybe just convection of air from pipes carrying water - put heat in at the bottom, take it out at the top.
 
I've used to work in Energy research a decade ago an we had a similar dirt including concept already back then. For industry buidlings and residential homes.

When you are going to insulate the walls in a new construction or retrofit project - run the insulation down into the ground. Even if you don't have a basement - a meter and a half below grad. (3-5 ft)

Thermal Mass Expansion.JPG
Increases the thermal mass of the building dramatically. Further for old buildings, - where you can not insulate the slab - it's a massive improvement of floor temperatures.
 
Note: Some of this is a nit like saying the Sun rises in the east versus no it doesn't, it's the earth rotating.

No, svetz said hot air needs to be separated from cold air like in a balloon to rise, and this is not so.
....as an HVAC contractor myself, or anyone who has ever had a multi story house can attest… cold air falls down the stairs…
Svetz Wrong on thermodynamics? Hah! That only happens 70% of the time or anytime I use a calculator ; -)

Think of it this way, if the air was well mixed it would be at the same temperature. If it's at the same temperature then it's at the same density.
If it's at the same density then there's no rising/falling. Ergo if there's rising/falling there's is a temperature gradient and therefore a separation.

Most of what you see with AC (or any cold draft) is some sort of thermocline (e.g., streams of different temperature air moving, usually the denser one falling without mixing due to laminar flow). This is also what drives the weather (colder air at the same pressure requires less volume (PV=nRT) so warmer air pushes against it causing wind, or where colder air contacts warmer air it will "flow" underneath and at the boundary possibly condense moisture out warmer air causing precipitation).

Let me just supply the next argument... okay smarty pants... You said "Most" so we know we're not getting the whole story. Also, you're wrong because the temperature of a "still" room is hotter at the top than the bottom - scientifically proven!
Right you are! So glad you asked! If you take well-mixed air and let it stand undisturbed you will see a temperature gradient (for a while anyway). Proof positive, right? Nope... the hot air is up there because it's less dense - not because it's hotter.

But where did the heat come from if it was all well mixed to start with?

To understand that you need to understand what's being measured with temperature. Pressure is essentially the measure of collisions per second of molecules. Remember PV = nRT? Double n (number of molecules) while keeping V & T constant and you double the collision energy, you double P.

Temperature is a measure of the kinetic energy imparted during a collision and it has two parts: the physical speed/mass of the molecule and the vibrational frequency of the bonds between the atoms.

At 0C and 1 atm the average distance between air molecules is 1 nm (an oxygen molecule is about .3 nm). In between them is a vacuum.
There's an average of 3.46x10^10 collisions of those molecules per second and a liter of air contains about ~6 x10^23 molecules.
But given ~6.02214199 x10^23 molecules in a single liter of air, what are the odds of any two molecules having the same energy?

What temperature measures is the average energy of a heck of a lot of molecules. Even when a room feels all the same temperature you can bet there are outliers on both sides of a bell curve.

If two molecules of exactly the same energy collide there is no energy transfer. Think of the molecule as little spheres connected by springs and the bond energy as the stiffness of the springs. If two molecules with the same velocity impact but have different bond energies, then velocity or bond energy can change.

So, the reason a temperature gradient forms in a still room is because the air molecules were never really all the same temperature and the hot ones create lower density and therefore float to the top. Because the molecules with similar energies are in similar layers there is very little energy transfer overall between the layers and the gradient persists. But don't worry, in a closed system they should eventually reach equilibrium.

Bottom line, if you have a column of sand, don't expect a temperature gradient at the top of the column because "heat rises".
 
Maybe some of you saw David Poz build a water tank that holds 3 days of hot water . My concept it to use sand instead for a few reasons. I think a sand tank would have no maintenance & last for ever. It would not be a possible source of humidity &/or mold. Sand can get hotter than water. No leaks.
basically insulating a sand pit. throwing a few thousand feet of cooper piping to increase the surface contact.
 
Actually, hot air does not rise… cold air falls, as it is denser than warmer air, and the cold air pushes up the less dense air.

It's Dark Energy that pulls hot air up!

Possibly, Zeolite could be used to store heat. Takes heat to dry it out, releases heat when water added.

 
When you are going to insulate the walls in a new construction or retrofit project - run the insulation down into the ground. Even if you don't have a basement - a meter and a half below grad. (3-5 ft)
I've seen a finished and insulated basement where the ceiling wasn't insulated or isolated from the wall. The basement was 70°, the house was 70°, but the ceiling/floor between the two was freezing.
 
I've seen a finished and insulated basement where the ceiling wasn't insulated or isolated from the wall. The basement was 70°, the house was 70°, but the ceiling/floor between the two was freezing.
Freezing when the outside air temp is freezing and there is outside air mixing into the space maybe…
 
Nope... the hot air is up there because it's less dense - not because it's hotter.

..... But .... it is less dense because it is hotter ..... which came first.

I think what came first is that the air on top got hotter ... which caused to to become less dense ..... which caused it to rise. So, the first thing was that the air got hotter.
 
It seems the guys in the video solved the problem of the slower energy transfer of sand by making it 6 times hotter than you can make water ... at 600 degrees, you will still get a LOT of heat transfer.

The thing they didn't explain was how they got the sand that hot .... are they using super heated air in a gigantic heat exchanger?
 
Not sure if anyone here watches Matt Rislinger but he is a insulation guru.

I think my take away is that the sand wont get the water that "hot". I sure someone could exactly calculate how much the water temp would rise going threw the coil. But I did not think there was a product that did this very thing. IE store hot water without all the issues. The question then has to move from sand to, battery. Is the expense of the tank prohibitive when batteries are so cheap?

I am not going to build a DIY water tank. It sounds easy until you read this thread. Sand would be a nice mass, it would not store then release the heat to make the energy getting it there worth it.

3 days of hot water is a lot of power. Real big battery vs https://www.rheem.com/product/marat...ater-with-limited-lifetime-warranty-mts105245

Tank is about $1600. $1600 battery 100ah-280ah depending. Say I build it so 280ah. 280ah at 48v. Will 280ah at 48v heat 105gal of water over a 3 day period? So many other questions to answer before that can be answered.
 
..... But .... it is less dense because it is hotter ..... which came first.

I think what came first is that the air on top got hotter ... which caused to to become less dense ..... which caused it to rise. So, the first thing was that the air got hotter.

When you put a witch and a duck on a scale, what makes the witch rise?

 
It seems the guys in the video solved the problem of the slower energy transfer of sand by making it 6 times hotter than you can make water ... at 600 degrees, you will still get a LOT of heat transfer.

The thing they didn't explain was how they got the sand that hot .... are they using super heated air in a gigantic heat exchanger?
Just like with heat pumps. People just throw a few thousand feet of PEX pipe in the ground around there house and getting tons of energy from there. A dirt battery will be most likely a bit wet. Thus the conductivity much better then dried sand. Heating the sand is easy. Just a bunch of electrical heater.
 
Just like with heat pumps. People just throw a few thousand feet of PEX pipe in the ground around there house and getting tons of energy from there. A dirt battery will be most likely a bit wet. Thus the conductivity much better then dried sand. Heating the sand is easy. Just a bunch of electrical heater.
In the video ... they specifically said the only requirement for the sand was that it be dry ..... Of course if you heat it to 600 degrees C, you are going to purge all moisture.
 
In the video ... they specifically said the only requirement for the sand was that it be dry ..... Of course if you heat it to 600 degrees C, you are going to purge all moisture.
must have missed that part. Yeah, then probably cooper pipes to get the heat back.

Still electric heater should work.
 
How about a fresnel lens? Solar heating of the sand?

Glass on top, not much heat transfer to the bottom?


It would seem preferable to get near 100% of solar energy to heat the sand, rather than 20% converted to electricity by PV, from that resistance heating. Maybe concentrator collectors and a working fluid piped into bottom of sand pile, heated air slowly percolating through it to heat all the grains of sand.
 
..... But .... it is less dense because it is hotter ..... which came first.

I think what came first is that the air on top got hotter ... which caused to to become less dense ..... which caused it to rise. So, the first thing was that the air got hotter.
At 1Atmosphere of pressure, “air” when heated will expand.

There are a LOT of forces at play on the atmosphere. If we focus on a ventilated room, the forces are simpler.
gravity, and convection. If a furnace pulls in return cool air, heats it and supplies it back to the room, it will, if dumped out high without a diffuser, sit on top of the cooler air, then convection will spread the heat from the air around the room.
If the heated air is dumped out low in the room, again, without a diffuser, it will be forced to the top of the room by the denser air around it, and convection will again distribute the heat.

If you use an electric heater to warm the air in the room, cold air will be the densest, so the heaters are as low as possible, as the air is heated, more cold air pushes out the heated less dense air.
there is no rising… there is gravity pulling denser air below the less dense air.

Remember… there are only two forces. Gravity, and convection. Gravity pulls towards the center of mass of the planet. So… in the room… down. Convection is a circulation motion… radiant energy transfer barely provides any change in the scenario, and radiant certainly does not rise, or fall… it radiates.
 
This is really going well. I had not considered the chemical maintenance of the water tank water. Sounds horrible.

My build is not ideal. I had a fire & I am making do with what I have. I've got 2 20' containers in the center of my structure. I have room on top of the containers to build a large low tank. I own a backhoe & everything is open now. So getting the sand in is not a issue.


Bingo!

Now, what size copper tube & how far does the heat saturate? In other words, how tight do the coils need to be? Where in the mass would be best for the coil? Yes, heat rises but its going to drop also.

My tank is going to be like 8'x8'x 1'-2' deep. I'm thinking of a coil like you see in a solar hot water collector. Like a disk. Fancy would be a double disk. Or a disk that traced itself back.
Guda: I think that before going any further, you should clearly define the scope of what you are trying to achieve, so people who might have applicable info can comment. For example, right or wrong, I'm thinking you are going to bury these containers? Not sure....
In any event, several comments you made are incorrect, the first one being that a tank with sand in it will never fail. Sand has all sorts of pollutants in it, even washed sand. The audio community bakes their sand in ovens at 500 degrees before filling metal speaker stands with it for that reason.

Just in case you are thinking of burying your containers under a couple feet of sand or dirt, be aware that they are not designed to support those kinds of loads, and would need to be heavily reinforced for that to be safe. If you are trying to create some sort of passive heat system, you would do well to look into techniques for burying piping. It can be used for both heating and cooling if set up properly. Last, but not least, if you are wiling to use water to heat this, why not save all this work, and buy a solar hot water collector, and at least do a drain back system? They are not that hard to set up. And, you can scrounge up a proper tank on Craigslist, or a local fab shop, etc. If you went with a pressurized system, a heat exchanger, and a pump, you could use nearly any large ASME air pressure tank. If it doesn't leak, oxygen in the water will be removed through the heating process, and the water will not corrode the tank. I have torn apart sealed system that were over 60 years old, and the piping was perfect.

Sand can hold a lot of heat, for sure. But to do a proper job with it, you need a lot of it to make a difference. Back in the 70s and 80's, people were building passive houses with 3-4 feet of sand/gravel, etc as a heat storage medium. That was under their entire house. One of the ideas I always thought was cool was to lay rows of cement blocks on their sides, so air could pass through them like a tunnel, and then use either a small blower, or convection to cause the air to circulate through the structure.

Maybe you are not trying to do this, and just want a small heater. If you want to use hot water in some fashion, I'd look at a solar water panel set up.
 
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