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Super-Supercaps

curiouscarbon

Science Penguin
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Jun 29, 2020
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Was searching around for silicon carbide and supercapacitors, and ran across this:


claim of 4F/cmsq up to 11-20F/cmsq stating existing super caps are ~0.3F/cmsq

thoughts anyone?

@Hedges knows a lot more than I do about components, I wonder what they think about this.

For the record, I’m putting my personal resources into LFP battery chemistry for personal use.
 
Meh.

3 years old and the only additional news item is announcing their relocation. IMHO, the issue with supercapacitors will always be their low volumetric energy density. They may be lightweight, but they will occupy a large volume at least 3X the volume (possibly 10X of the highest density lithium).
 
thank you for your thoughts

less to suggest as replacing battery, was thinking in context of existing capacitors eg for buffering applications

again thanks

i want to learn more about cool ess related capacitor applications
 
fyi - when you say, "Hey @Hedges !", no one hears you.
(Unlike Siri, I'm not listening in on your conversations even when not invited. But even when my name is invoked, the system doesn't notify me.)

I have some experience understanding data sheets (especially when parts don't work as I or a coworker expected) and a bit of device physics background. But for the most part I don't know about up and coming component technologies. I tend to stick with the tried-and-true (as people here will notice.) Did I say I work with vacuum tubes (of sorts)?
 
If all of the 'breakthrough' energy storage technologies met even half of their predictions we would have cars driving hundreds of miles on a single AA cell. When I first started looking at batteries I would get excited about each announcement..... after a long series of disappointments I would keep the excitement up by thinking 'one of these are going to be a big breakthrough'..... now I am skeptical of anything that is not in volume production. Keep in mind that a lot of the announcements have the sole purpose of raising funding... as such the authors are incentivized to make it sound like a sure bet.

I am hopeful that some of the Tesla Battery Day announcements will come to past.... but those were not breakthrough, they were better engineering and manufacturing with the established technologies. However, I will not be surprised when (not if) some of the Tesla claims are never met...and Tesla is better positioned than most companies to deliver on the claims

Don't get me wrong.... a true breakthrough will come someday. Nothing stays on top forever.....(well, OK the wheel hasn't been replaced but you know what I mean ?). I just don't get excited about grand proclamations any more.
 
less to suggest as replacing battery, was thinking in context of existing capacitors eg for buffering applications

It is already commonplace to use supercaps in parallel with LiFePO4 to minimise the C rate on discharge seen by the LiFePO4 pack.
 
It is already commonplace to use supercaps in parallel with LiFePO4 to minimise the C rate on discharge seen by the LiFePO4 pack.
Cool, thank you for this information.

I wonder what sorts of protection they put in place, like precharge. I’ll search around. Thanks for mentioning.
 
fyi - when you say, "Hey @Hedges !", no one hears you.
(Unlike Siri, I'm not listening in on your conversations even when not invited. But even when my name is invoked, the system doesn't notify me.)
Drat.. I must have forgotten to spin around or something. Sorry if calling you out was too much.
I have some experience understanding data sheets (especially when parts don't work as I or a coworker expected) and a bit of device physics background. But for the most part I don't know about up and coming component technologies. I tend to stick with the tried-and-true (as people here will notice.) Did I say I work with vacuum tubes (of sorts)?
Thank you for your input!
 
It is already commonplace to use supercaps in parallel with LiFePO4 to minimise the C rate on discharge seen by the LiFePO4 pack.
Could you provide some links to where and why the supercaps are used?
 
I’ve heard of it being done with lead acid but not LiFePO4


UltraBattery combines ultracapacitor technology with lead-acid battery technology in a single cell with a common electrolyte.

In comparison with conventional VRLA batteries, UltraBattery can be charged efficiently and at high charging/discharging rates. Hund et al.’s test results showed that the Ultrabattery was able to cycle at the 4C1 rate for around 15,000 cycles. The VRLA battery using this test procedure could only cycle at the 1C1 rate. A 1C rate indicates that the battery's entire capacity would be used (or replaced if charging) in one hour at this rate. A 4C rate is four times faster – i.e. the battery would be fully discharged (or charged) in 15 minutes at the 4C rate.
Before learning about LFP chemistry this was under consideration for me.
 
I've been looking around this evening. Maxwell Technology is being bought out by Tesla. They sell ultracaps, but are not really doing much with the new takeover.

Another one from car stereos is


They can put out a lot of current, but not for long.
 
Maxwell was purchased by tesla for their manufacturing processes.... I don't imagine there is anything left of the ultracap business. That is a bit ironic because and one point Elon Musk was saying ultrcaps were the thing of the future.
 
Maxwell was purchased by tesla for their manufacturing processes.... I don't imagine there is anything left of the ultracap business. That is a bit ironic because and one point Elon Musk was saying ultrcaps were the thing of the future.
Elon's a pretty good investor. He may have purchased Maxwell for the process, but wouldn't throw out the company. I could see him letting Maxwell proceed as a corporation for the profits. Anyone see any current manufacturing/ distribution from Maxwell? Amazon shows third party sellers. They may be old stock or counterfeits?

My possible use of caps is to capture some solar power while I'm heating the LiFePO4's to above freezing. My estimates are about 4 hours to heat up a 100AH BattleBorn. In the winters, that may be all the solar day I get. By the time the batteries can take a charge, the suns setting.

Caps would also buffer the LiFePO4's to avoid some of the cycles and high draws, hoping to make them last longer. Caps are more forgiving on temperature, voltage extremes, and cycles.

Caps would allow the solar to run the camper when the LiFePO4 BMS shuts down due to low voltage. Currently my solar controller turns on/off continuously, Hold up Caps could keep the power running, maybe just at a lower voltage.

One issue I don't know about is the current. If I put in a 500F capacitor bank, running the solar to charge the caps and heat the batteries, when the batteries hit 32F, the BMS could switch on the battery all at once, creating a large inrush current. I don't think that's good to hit a LiFePO4 with a high C pulse on turn on.
 
My possible use of caps is to capture some solar power while I'm heating the LiFePO4's to above freezing. My estimates are about 4 hours to heat up a 100AH BattleBorn. In the winters, that may be all the solar day I get. By the time the batteries can take a charge, the suns setting.

...

One issue I don't know about is the current. If I put in a 500F capacitor bank, running the solar to charge the caps and heat the batteries, when the batteries hit 32F, the BMS could switch on the battery all at once, creating a large inrush current. I don't think that's good to hit a LiFePO4 with a high C pulse on turn on.

LiFePO4 voltage is pretty flat with discharge.
Capacitor voltage is linear with current, V^2 with voltage.

You could let PV charge capacitors, but PV wouldn't remain at Vmp.

Ideal setup is a DC/DC switcher that extracts maximum power from PV and charges capacitor with either no voltage limits (cap must withstand Voc) or some upper limit. This voltage should then be within MPPT of battery charger, perhaps where it gives optimum efficiency.

Maybe have batteries charge capacitors through diode and resistor to get them to reasonable voltage (nothing lower does any good), then charge with MPPT set for a higher voltage e.g. 72V in the case of 48V system.

This could take care of storing some power from PV prior to battery being warmed enough to accept charge.

Caps would also buffer the LiFePO4's to avoid some of the cycles and high draws, hoping to make them last longer. Caps are more forgiving on temperature, voltage extremes, and cycles.

For capacitors to supply power instead of battery, they either need to be at a higher voltage (battery connected through diode to prevent backfeed), or they start at same voltage as battery and get pulled lower. Any lower voltage on its terminals draws massive current from battery, so need an impedance - resistance, inductance, active current limiter, some sort of inrush limiter.

What is the inductance/resistance/short circuit current of supercapacitors? Any time a switch is closed connecting to other capacitors, inrush limiting would be needed.

Perhaps a high-frequency inverter architecture would be best.
It can be designed to pull up to a fixed current from battery with its boost circuit. That could for instance pull amps from a 48V battery to charge a 200V+ or 400V+ rail. The 120V or 240V sine wave would then be produced with buck. That voltage rail would supply surge by being pulled down toward 170V or 340V.

So how about hacking into your high-frequency inverter, install the supercaps in parallel with its high voltage capacitors?
 
LiFePO4 voltage is pretty flat with discharge.
Capacitor voltage is linear with current, V^2 with voltage.

You could let PV charge capacitors, but PV wouldn't remain at Vmp.

Ideal setup is a DC/DC switcher that extracts maximum power from PV and charges capacitor with either no voltage limits (cap must withstand Voc) or some upper limit. This voltage should then be within MPPT of battery charger, perhaps where it gives optimum efficiency.

Maybe have batteries charge capacitors through diode and resistor to get them to reasonable voltage (nothing lower does any good), then charge with MPPT set for a higher voltage e.g. 72V in the case of 48V system.

This could take care of storing some power from PV prior to battery being warmed enough to accept charge.



For capacitors to supply power instead of battery, they either need to be at a higher voltage (battery connected through diode to prevent backfeed), or they start at same voltage as battery and get pulled lower. Any lower voltage on its terminals draws massive current from battery, so need an impedance - resistance, inductance, active current limiter, some sort of inrush limiter.

What is the inductance/resistance/short circuit current of supercapacitors? Any time a switch is closed connecting to other capacitors, inrush limiting would be needed.

Perhaps a high-frequency inverter architecture would be best.
It can be designed to pull up to a fixed current from battery with its boost circuit. That could for instance pull amps from a 48V battery to charge a 200V+ or 400V+ rail. The 120V or 240V sine wave would then be produced with buck. That voltage rail would supply surge by being pulled down toward 170V or 340V.

So how about hacking into your high-frequency inverter, install the supercaps in parallel with its high voltage capacitors?
Looks like a lot of work. I was hoping to have a "hold up" cap to act as a battery when the batteries shut down due to low voltage, possibly storing a small amount to dump into the battery when it turns on.

It appears your recommending the caps to be between the PV panels and the solar controller. Wouldn't that still be no 12V battery on the downstream of the controller? BTW, I have 600W of solar, 2S3P for 24V PV. The output is 12V into the batteries/campers.

I will have other charging methods that probably need some battery voltage. Looking at a Victron Multiplus inverter/charger and a DC-DC charger from the vehicle alternator.

I may try some of the cheap supercaps (59F, 16V) just to see if it holds up the charge/ 3W draw. It could hold up for a minute or two.

I may experiment with old lead acid batteries in parallel with the LiFePO4's. Charging lead acid in parallel with LiFePO4's charging profile would probably further damage the lead acid. Maybe a large resistor/High Voltage Disconnect on the lead acid would buffer the higher voltages? Old lead acid batteries are almost free.
 
Energy stored in a capacitor is 1/2 C V^2
If LiFePO4 discharges from 3.4V to 3.3V, a 59F capacitor in parallel would provide 20 joules (or watt-seconds) per cell, 6 amp seconds at 3.3V.
Big whoopee.
12V battery, you get 24 amp-seconds.

If you could have 16V discharge to 12V, then you get 275 amp-seconds and 3kW-seconds. That would be a nice surge, but takes circuits able to extract power from that large a voltage swing. Maybe it does some good if there is a long, resistive cable to the LiFePO4 battery allowing such voltage drop.
 
Energy stored in a capacitor is 1/2 C V^2
If LiFePO4 discharges from 3.4V to 3.3V, a 59F capacitor in parallel would provide 20 joules (or watt-seconds) per cell, 6 amp seconds at 3.3V.
Big whoopee.
12V battery, you get 24 amp-seconds.

If you could have 16V discharge to 12V, then you get 275 amp-seconds and 3kW-seconds. That would be a nice surge, but takes circuits able to extract power from that large a voltage swing. Maybe it does some good if there is a long, resistive cable to the LiFePO4 battery allowing such voltage drop.
I haven't timed the beeps from the camper when the solar stops. I think it was less than 10-20 seconds. It may be able to hold up the power for the 3Watt drain. Yes, it would beep once or twice near sunset, not continuously all day.

I have several deep cycle or old starting batteries that could do the job. These would be high voltage disconnected above the BMS low voltage shutdown, and connected below that. This should allow the voltage to drop down gradually rather than an abrupt disconnect of the BMS. In the winter, it may only be the lead acid that does the work. The LiFePO4's may not get above freezing for long periods.

I'll work on the 3W parasitic load. If I'm not there, I don't really need the propane sensors. I could add a thermostatic snap switch for the power sources I do need when it's above freezing.
 
Maybe since March there are other developments on super caps that may alter views
From the other thread-

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/p...e-break-it-before-i-buy-it.30426/#post-366726

At the moment Super Caps are seldom included in initial DIY solar plans... PV--CC--Bat--Inv.
It is possible that as Super Cap advantages become more well known the default initial plan would be this....PV--CC--Bat--Super Cap--Inv and it is interesting to see other responses-
My measurements with a scope indicate most to all of the 60 Hz current draw to feed inverter comes from battery, because no practical capacitor would be large enough.
How about one of these-
48V 165F Maxwell Super Capacitor 48V 165F Maxwell Super Capacitor 48V 165F MAXWELL SUPER CAPACITOR

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Tesla sells Maxwell Technologies, but keeps dry cell tech

An Australian Company - CAP-XX
that makes them in Malaysia
 
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