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Tell me about your hot water helper tanks

Maitake

Solar Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
Messages
354
I have an 80 gallon indirect hot water heater that runs off a circulator from the oil burner.

Would like to keep the oil as backup, how are you guys configuring your electric helper tanks to use excess solar production? I should have many kw available once the battery is charged.
Thx
 
I have tied some of my panels directly to my lower element of a 50 gallon hot water heater. I replaced the AC element with a DC element.
 
I have an 80 gallon indirect hot water heater that runs off a circulator from the oil burner.

Would like to keep the oil as backup, how are you guys configuring your electric helper tanks to use excess solar production? I should have many kw available once the battery is charged.
Thx
You could add the helper tank. In the loop, before the boiler. This way the boiler will see that the water doesn't need heating.
A SOC monitor with relay, can turn it on and off at your chosen settings. I'm installing a standard water heater, with 240vac elements. Powered from my house panel.
 
You could add the helper tank. In the loop, before the boiler. This way the boiler will see that the water doesn't need heating.
A SOC monitor with relay, can turn it on and off at your chosen settings. I'm installing a standard water heater, with 240vac elements. Powered from my house panel.
I don't understand " in the loop before the boiler"
Please elaborate. Thx.
 
I don't understand " in the loop before the boiler"
Please elaborate. Thx.
You said that it currently runs off a circulator.
Maybe I misunderstood the configuration.
In any case, if it's plumbed ahead of the current heating tank. It's hot water output goes into what would normally be the cold water input. And since the water is already heated. No heating will be called for.
I have a gas water heater. And I am placing an electric water heater in front of it. (Plumbing wise) so that my gas water heater will only run, if the electric water heater hasn't heated the water, already.
 
Don't count on the old hot water heater thermostat to work properly with DC:

Well worth 2 minutes of your time if you are working with anything DC over 50 volts. If you don't have two minutes, then cheat and jump ahead to 1:30 in the video. A good demonstration of why proper DC breakers cost more than AC breakers.

With 240 VAC 2500 Watts, we don't see so much as a pop since at zero crossings of the AC waveform any spark is quenched. At 240 VDC 2500 Watts, he draws a sustained 1 inch long fat white spark when switching off since once the air is ionized it provides a low impedance path for the current to continue passing through. Note that even with fairly long DC sparks, the heater remains red hot.

My offgrid system has 4.4kW of panels feeding a Magnum PT-100 charge controller filling a 1p16s 280AH LiFePO4 battery (soon to be 2p16s) and a 4.4kW Magnum MS4448PAE inverter. Can easily detect when the battery is approaching full by watching the PV panel voltage rise above the 130vdc maximum power point. Have for years thought about building a high frequency NFET based PWM controller to route excess PV panel power into an old 50 gallon electric hot water heater with standard 240v heater elements, have sufficiently large capacitors up front to filter out the PWM switching action as seen by the PT-100. Can buy up to 7kW 240v heater elements, so even at 140v they would be consuming 7kw*(140v/240v)**2 = 2.4kW, and two of them would take 4.8kW. A thermostat on the tank shuts down the PWM when the water is hot. Follow that with a 5 gallon demand water heater near the shower running off our inverter using battery power. https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Electric-Mini-Tank-Heater-2-5-Gallon/dp/B0148O658Y Could have the 50 gallon electric heater feed our current propane heater as suggested by timselectric. Could route water either from the two electric heaters in series when we have sufficient electrical power, or from just the propane heater. https://www.pexuniverse.com/webstone-40642-3-way-ball-valve https://www.electricsolenoidvalves.com/1-2-brass-3-way-electric-ball-valve-3-wire/ Not obvious to me which scheme would be more efficient, likely depends on how often hot water is used. Running the main electric water heater directly off of the DC PV panels means no need to beef up the battery charge controller or inverter.

Edit: The maximum power point for my panels is around 130 volts. I'm thinking this PWM (pulse width modulator) to the water heater would turn on at 140 volts near 0% duty cycle, increasing to 100% duty cycle at 150 volts. (And off when the water is hot.) Seems that should play well with the MPPT algorithm used by the PT-100 charger. Filter going into this new PWM water heater regulator would likely be a pi network of a cap, an inductor, and another cap, the PT-100 should see very little ripple if designed correctly.
 
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I use a smart solar PV diverter for our hot water resistive element storage tank.
Australian device: Catch Power Green
For single phase 230/240 V supplies. Grid tied systems only.

There are various such diverters available but Ive little idea what is available in the USA.

The unit monitors our power flow with a CT clamp and knows when we are exporting energy to the grid. It then adjusts up how much power is sent to the HW heating element, in the case of my unit it uses a burst fire method of power control, although some diverters use PWM.

Depending on how much power solar PV my system is generating and what other loads are operating at the time, it might be sending 100W to the heating element or it might be sending 2 kW or more to the heating element, it instantly adjusts the power delivered to the heating element based on the available excess PV generation. It can divert anything up to the element's rated 3.6 kW. If other household loads exceed available solar PV generation, then it will cease diverting energy to the hot water system.

It tends to keep the balance such that there is still some small amount of export to the grid so that grid imports are avoided.

Here's a chart showing the power flow for one 24 hour period for the supply phase this system operates on.
Positive = importing from the grid.
Negative = exporting the the grid.

Screen Shot 2022-07-31 at 11.05.05 am.png

From midnight to 5:30 am just a small base load of ~80 W imported from the grid, mostly electronics.

At 5:30 am a reverse cycle aircon system is turned on for heating in the second dwelling. Grid imports rise to 600-650 W.

From ~7:00 am the solar PV system begins to generate, and production gradually ramps up as the sun rises higher. As a result grid imports begin to decline.

At about 8:00 am there is enough solar PV generation such that we are no longer importing energy from the grid.

From ~8:30 am the diverter begins to send power to the hot water heating element. As more solar PV output becomes available it diverts more power to the hot water, and exported energy is kept to a low level.

Just before 11 am the hot water thermostat switch opens and so no more power is being diverted to hot water. The excess energy is now being exported to the grid.

In the period during which diversion was occurring, the second dwelling heating would have been operating, and eventually turned off. That increased the power being diverted to heat water, but you can't see it because the diverter automatically and quickly adjusts how much power is diverted based on changes in production (e.g. clouds pass over) and consumption (e.g. household loads are turned on and off).

Can also see later in the afternoon the system diverted a little more energy as the thermostat likely closed again, but these were short top up heating cycles of 5-10 minutes.

If by the end of the solar day the diverter has not been able to complete a full water heating cycle (e.g. it was a lousy solar day), which it will know because the water heater's thermostat switch didn't open at all during the day, then it will use overnight grid off-peak power to complete the heating cycle. I can tell it to never use grid power and instead wait until the next day to heat, but for safety I prefer to ensure the tank never has the opportunity to linger at lower temperatures for too long (legionella risk).

I did some readings over the last few weeks. It's mid-Winter here, so PV production is limited. It's operating with what is effectively a 3.6 kW PV array (one phase of my 3-phase system) and a max inverter supply of 3.3 kW. In a three-week long period we imported an average of 0.7 kWh/day from the grid. Normally at this time of year we would import 5.5 - 6 kWh/day for hot water. As we head out of Winter there will be much less requirement for the system to top up from the grid. June is the "worst" solar production month here and we imported about 2 kWh/day on average.

Overall I am expecting to reduce our import of energy for water heating to about 10% of what it was, with 90% being supplied by the solar PV.

I'll have a much better handle on system's annual performance at end of Q1 2023. So far it's had the wettest and most prolonged crappy solar PV Autumn period on record and Winter to deal with. Even so our grid imports for hot water have been reduced by 2/3rds.
 
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