to cheat or not to cheat... that is the question

[vallesj]

I just bought a solar tracker with solar panels included (1170 watts). But I am undecided on how to use it; originally I was thinking about just get one of those grid tie inverter and connect it to a socket, I mean that circuit is protected with a breaker (20A) with higher capacity than what the system and loads can stress on the system. But then I realize that in order to interconnect with the grid you need permits, installation by a certified electrician, etc.. etc... Also equipment needs to be UL1741 and most of those for small inverters on Amazon are not. The only one I found UL is an Aptos MAC-800 (which I may use 2) but is only 240V not the 120V from my socket. So, my only options for something relatively simple and not expensive are

1. Use 2 Y&H microinverters of 800W (none UL), add some fans to them so they can work fine and last, don't ask permit to anyone, and assume I will get lucky my electric company here in Texas will not notice. If the company only monitors at the end of the month the total consumption, obviously I will never produce more than I consume and everyone is happy, but since it is possible that sometimes my panels produce more than what I am consuming at an specific hour, the meter will detect negative consumption and if there is alarms set on the meter my company will know I am interconnecting with them.
   1. There is one Y&H inverter that includes a limiter so that I don't produce more than what I consume, but only in options of 1000W. I don't think the panels can get that efficient to produce more than the 1000 watts.
2. Make an hybrid system, use a battery, inverter and select some circuits from my panel that can get the benefits of my 1k panels, and install a switch that in case of cloudy days with batteries without enough charge, just switch those circuits back to the grid.

If using option 1 and my electric company find outs, is there a fine or an expensive consequences?
I know option 2 is safer to avoid any complain or fines (if any) from the electric company, but will require more investment from my side.

It is lame that something simple and with a lot of incentives to promote clean energy is flooded with so many regulations that we cannot make a simple and not expensive transition.

 

[hwy17]

1. Usually it's removal of the system and a fine of less than $1500. Possibly suffering an inspection to confirm your household power system is restored to normal.

2. Most of us choose 2.

3. If you're really paranoid a hybrid can still blip exports that can be read at about 1 second definition. Those of us who are paranoid build double conversion systems.

Edit: Inspection, not infection. Infections are not known risk of DIY solar.

 

[OzSolar]

If using option 1 and my electric company find outs, is there a fine or an expensive consequences?

Assume they will find out.

Around here they send two trucks with two of thier biggest linemen in each one. One of them knocks on your door and asks you to turn off your illegally interconnected system. The other truck is pulling up to your meter pole preparing to either pull your transformer fuse or your meter if you don't comply.

 

[Mattb4]

...

It is lame that something simple and with a lot of incentives to promote clean energy is flooded with so many regulations that we cannot make a simple and not expensive transition.

It is not just a regulation issue. Supplies to the grid and distribution from the grid was not designed in many cases to allow for a ton of small up-feeds. Loads drive supply. But a grid tie unit works to take as much load as it is capable of doing. Too many feeders and not enough loads create quite a problem. Grids can and do get destabilized from too much solar power.

You also have to understand that the electric company may not want you as a power supplier but as a customer. They buy cheap and sell higher to make a profit.

They are getting pretty good at detecting clandestine grid tie setups. Likely if you cheat this will just cause them to threaten to shut you down if you do not immediately disconnect the unapproved device.

 

[pollenface]

Stay off the grid if you're not permitted to export.

Otherwise a power-limiting inverter with CT clamp may be an option for you. It senses the incoming current and starts producing power to assist your loads.

 

[CaliSunHarvester]

They are getting pretty good at detecting clandestine grid tie setups.

Just yesterday I read in another thread here about someone who had exported less than 100W for less than 15 minutes and he received a phone call.

 

[OzSolar]

Otherwise a power-limiting inverter with CT clamp may be an option for you. It senses the incoming current and starts producing power to assist your loads.

I'd be careful with this.

I can't speak to the specifics since I don't understand them. But there has been a few threads where folks who had no intention of selling back still got called out by the utility because many of the new utility meters are sensitive enough to pick up the just few of watts being sold back in an instant. Apparently the CT's can't get it shut down instantly. Is it a problem? Probably not but many utilities are looking any excuse they can use to lock down personal use of solar.

 

[OzSolar]

They are getting pretty good at detecting clandestine grid tie setups. Likely if you cheat this will just cause them to threaten to shut you down if you do not immediately disconnect the unapproved device.

It will also give them more ammunition to introduce even more restrictive measures on legal interconnections.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Edit: Inspection, not infection. Infections are not known risk of DIY solar.

what about the dreaded Smurf Disease? That seems like an infection to me....you buy one piece of Victron and then the whole forum jumps on you to buy more... next thing you know you are pimping out the wife and the family dog to get one more interconnect cable for your cerbo unit...

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

yeah take your smallish system get some batteries, and wire it up with a sub panel, automatic transfer switch and have fun. power a few rooms treating your solar system as the mains and the actual mains as the backup. (this is in regards to the transfer switch).

 

[dougbert]

My XW Pro does have a grid input on AC1, but I have that breaker OFF, all the "normal" time.
I do not have netmetering at all

to charge on those dark winter days and nights, I use the Chargeverter to charge the batteries and run house loads. I use the inverter's AUX port (dry contactor) to enable a pair of SSRs to turn on the grid to the chargeverter when voltage gets to a low of 43 volts. Just maintains the voltage there, no charging, only running house loads in the wee hours of the morning. When the sun comes up, solar will recharge it

Now if things are going to be dark for a day or two, then I will manually charge the batteries to a higher voltage, but not all the way.

Thus, I stay away from the grid connecting to my inverter - I use it as an inverter, not a charger, nor bypass

I did have it connected to the grid for a while, with various settings and it DID EXPORT a few watts now and then - stop it I said

 

[hwy17]

what about the dreaded Smurf Disease? That seems like an infection to me....you buy one piece of Victron and then the whole forum jumps on you to buy more... next thing you know you are pimping out the wife and the family dog to get one more interconnect cable for your cerbo unit...

That's why I keep my cells in a metal box, I don't want the blue to start spreading into the rest of my system.

 

[vallesj]

Thanks God for having these type of forums! If you got an idea somebody else already tried it and you can get experience from them before making the same mistakes.
It took me a lot of reading about different configurations, people with my same idea of grid tie microinverters, etc.. I investigated about those ecoflows, ankers and dabbssons, which looks pretty cool, but they come to a price. There on those devices I read of people just using battery and chargers to feed and charge the limited PV input those devices have. So, at the end, it looks more cost effective to use an All in one (AIO) device with a battery.
Since my solar panels and tracker are coming from eco-worthy, I guess I will use their AIO and battery; the system is a 3000W inverter with 60A mppt solar controller, but reviews are mixed. Any other suggestions that does not require me to break the piggy bank? somebody recommended on some post the EG4 with similar capabilities, but is $200 more expensive. May be Sungoldpower or PowMR are good reliable choices?

 

[dougbert]

Thanks God for having these type of forums! If you got an idea somebody else already tried it and you can get experience from them before making the same mistakes.
It took me a lot of reading about different configurations, people with my same idea of grid tie microinverters, etc.. I investigated about those ecoflows, ankers and dabbssons, which looks pretty cool, but they come to a price. There on those devices I read of people just using battery and chargers to feed and charge the limited PV input those devices have. So, at the end, it looks more cost effective to use an All in one (AIO) device with a battery.
Since my solar panels and tracker are coming from eco-worthy, I guess I will use their AIO and battery; the system is a 3000W inverter with 60A mppt solar controller, but reviews are mixed. Any other suggestions that does not require me to break the piggy bank? somebody recommended on some post the EG4 with similar capabilities, but is $200 more expensive. May be Sungoldpower or PowMR are good reliable choices?

yeah, they look good and have some nice features, yet their core capabilities (battery size, panel capacity) are LOW. That is why I built my own dolly based 3000 watt Growatt with a 2.5kwh battery. Has a 20 amp circuit and was $1300 at the time and 5 times the capacity of the packaged $2000 units

 

[Mattb4]

Thanks God for having these type of forums! If you got an idea somebody else already tried it and you can get experience from them before making the same mistakes.
It took me a lot of reading about different configurations, people with my same idea of grid tie microinverters, etc.. I investigated about those ecoflows, ankers and dabbssons, which looks pretty cool, but they come to a price. There on those devices I read of people just using battery and chargers to feed and charge the limited PV input those devices have. So, at the end, it looks more cost effective to use an All in one (AIO) device with a battery.
Since my solar panels and tracker are coming from eco-worthy, I guess I will use their AIO and battery; the system is a 3000W inverter with 60A mppt solar controller, but reviews are mixed. Any other suggestions that does not require me to break the piggy bank? somebody recommended on some post the EG4 with similar capabilities, but is $200 more expensive. May be Sungoldpower or PowMR are good reliable choices?

Many of the inexpensive AIO's are simply rebranded Voltronics or SRNE. I believe the Eco-Worthy is SRNE as is the SunGold and the PowMr, and even Midnite solar DIY. Growatts and MPP are Voltronics.

Before you buy anything understand the specifications for every component so that they work with each other. From the panels, wiring, types of breakers and fuses to the AIO, that contains the charge controller, Inverter/charger, Transfer switch, all have specifications to be followed.

For instance the AIO you list has a 60a SCC which means that it is the low voltage PV model of up to 100Voc. When you hookup the panels you must be below that voltage amount. The 60a limits the amount of Pv wattage you can make use of (W=VA) so for a 24v nom. battery that means 1440w. You can have more but the AIO will only draw up to its maximum that puts a 60a charge towards the battery.

 

[robby]

Just yesterday I read in another thread here about someone who had exported less than 100W for less than 15 minutes and he received a phone call.

That plus the fact that if your bill drops by more than 25-30% for three consecutive months it triggers an automatic inspection.
Is there really a point in putting up solar if it's just to shave 20% off your bill.
Your best bet is to just keep it on a separate panel for specific devices and don't even think of grid tying.

 

[CaliSunHarvester]

That plus the fact that if your bill drops by more than 25-30% for three consecutive months it triggers an automatic inspection.

In what geographic area is this the case?

 

[dougbert]

It is the FEATURES I want, not the cost, that matters most to me. Saving on the bill is my 5th level priority. My first is to have power when the grid is down. Insulin in my refrigerators is far more important to keep viable

 

[Ampster]

They are getting pretty good at detecting clandestine grid tie setups.

That has not been my experience in California but my case may be unique. I have had three GT setups and received Permission to operate for one with SCE and for two with PG&E. In all those systems I have increased the capacity after the fact and never got a phone call or a message from either power company. My latest clandestine increase is on an 8 kW system which I added 3kW of additional panels for a total of 11kW. I rarely see more than 8.5kW of production at any one time and with overhead and house loads the export rarely exceeds 7.6kW. That peak output only for about an hour because the additional panels are West facing and peak at a different time than my main system. My total kWhs exported is less than 70% of what my permitted system could produce because I charge two EVs from excess solar during the day and usew batteries to avoid using the grid during peak times. Both those things may mask my clandestine increase in capacity.

 

[robby]

In what geographic area is this the case?

Just about everywhere my electrician friend tells me.