Video that puts American vs Chinese solar manufacturing into perspective
- Thread starter Will Prowse
- Start date
Moved to chit chat zone because this will probably turn political.
I am American, so I have always leaned toward the idea that interactions with the government should be voluntary. Using tarrifs to weaken other countries through a "trade war" is not something I support. If China creates better products, they should be rewarded for that. Let the global market place decide.
Considering that China has free trade zones, and America has a central bank that is not controlled by the people, and a Congress that pushes for corporate bailouts and money laundering to companies they have direct interest in, it's hard to call China the communists. By definition America is quite communist at this point. Going by fiscal policy.
In the video they pointed out that America uses subsidies to control heavy industry. And that's a big argument for having the tariffs against the Chinese.
I've always been against oil and solar subsidies. I hate them both equally. Let the people decide. Not the government.
I am American, so I have always leaned toward the idea that interactions with the government should be voluntary. Using tarrifs to weaken other countries through a "trade war" is not something I support. If China creates better products, they should be rewarded for that. Let the global market place decide.
Considering that China has free trade zones, and America has a central bank that is not controlled by the people, and a Congress that pushes for corporate bailouts and money laundering to companies they have direct interest in, it's hard to call China the communists. By definition America is quite communist at this point. Going by fiscal policy.
In the video they pointed out that America uses subsidies to control heavy industry. And that's a big argument for having the tariffs against the Chinese.
I've always been against oil and solar subsidies. I hate them both equally. Let the people decide. Not the government.
Absolutely. But the wording of your post actually reminded me of something. Not sure if you're into firearms but the Chinese optics are fantastic. And my American ones break all the time. You are absolutely right, but a lot of times China produced products get better over time.
I am a big fan of 2A.
The problem I have with China is that their entire "competitiveness" stands purely on absolutely abysmal (environmental) pollution standards and slave labor. Noone (in the west) can compete with that.
The other problem is savings achieved by shipping all industrial production to China did not go to help the proles - they were pocketed by Americal (And European) oligarchy
Have you been to Tijuana? Less than a mile away from the border, there are massive manufacturing warehouses to exploit Mexican labor. Would you consider that slave labor? African and Indian countries have true slavery. Buying and selling humans at markets. People never get mad at them for it. I would argue that China's middle class is larger than the entire population of America. Which is interesting to think about. They are obviously communist but there is a degree of economic mobility there. Not as great as America I would assume, but significantly better than most African countries and elsewhere.
Yes, very true about environmental pollution standards of China. Just awful. Not sure how to fix that.
I think the West can absolutely compete with that by using robots. If we are so great then we should create the best manufacturing output. And quality of goods.
In China they are replacing workers with robots rapidly.
A big argument that our American politicians push is that we cannot compete with China because they subsidize their solar industries. But that's exactly what we do as well. And our solar industry and many others. Imagine if other countries impose tariffs on our corn because we heavily subsidize it.
MajicDiver
Solar Enthusiast
There are many exceptions, but for the most part I agree. On most things, I actually prefer to buy made in China.
Notice how hostile America is to allow better manufacturers to come to America:
Imagine if they did this to Toyota. 15% market share and largest auto employer in North America.
Imagine if they did this to Toyota. 15% market share and largest auto employer in North America.
I think America is not understanding how far behind they are. And these other countries are now passing us up.
Look at the issues people are having in America to mine copper. This problem will compound in the next ten years.
Look at the issues people are having in America to mine copper. This problem will compound in the next ten years.
I dont think robots are the answer. Sure, robots can do certain things, but it is still very niche on a grand scheme of things.
I agree that if govt stayed out of the way (actually globalist oligarchies that control governments), then we could have a lot of great things, the people are most certainly capable. (most good things were invented in the proverbial west by the proverbial white man)
But that is not the goal that the powers that be have in place.
Instead what they want is this
Technocracy: The Operating System For The New International Rules-Based Order
The International Rules-Based Order is under threat and the balance of power is in flux. This geopolitical shift is not being led by nation states but rather by a global network of stakeholders seeking to create global technocracy.
unlimitedhangout.com
And specifically on Solar and "Battery tech" - it is niche tech. It should have its place, subject to free market forces, but it is unviable on the grand scale, mostly because of real pollution that is generated during its production and extreme resources that are required for manufacturing of all "green" tech (and intermittent energy it produce). Real education is also necessary (lots of people driving proverbial "teslas" think they are saving the earth while in reality its the exact opposite), same with solar panels, which are, unfortunately some of most toxic things produced in the long run.
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Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
There really needs to be Clarity on certain definitions:
Made in America & Assembled in America and VERY different things.
Then of course the Designed & Engineered in America (but produced in --- China/Mexico/Taiwan etc).
Labour Practices are a jewel for nonsense. The list of countries using forced/slave labour is HUGE yet few are really aware of how much is out there. Prison Labour is what exactly(different in the various nations). A "LOT" of Western Nations still make use of Child Labour (child = under 16 yrs old).
Made in America & Assembled in America and VERY different things.
Then of course the Designed & Engineered in America (but produced in --- China/Mexico/Taiwan etc).
Labour Practices are a jewel for nonsense. The list of countries using forced/slave labour is HUGE yet few are really aware of how much is out there. Prison Labour is what exactly(different in the various nations). A "LOT" of Western Nations still make use of Child Labour (child = under 16 yrs old).
KnobCountry
Leg puller. Zap avoider.
I absolutely agree with some of the takeaways from the video, I just wanted to call attn to and make sure we do our due diligence with the facts.
China is eating our lunch and our leadership is failing us.
It's so funny that Biden embraced the same tariffs he criticized Trump for. They are all so slimy.
China is eating our lunch and our leadership is failing us.
It's so funny that Biden embraced the same tariffs he criticized Trump for. They are all so slimy.
MajicDiver
Solar Enthusiast
I believe this to be totally incorrect and indicates a misunderstanding of why the USA was once a industrial heavyweight but is no longer - reasons I say this:
1. Very few “working class” Chinese understand the value of their work and the goods they produce. For that reason they generally beat the world in productivity (value-vs-cost).
2. The same was true in the USA for generations. Farmers flooded the industrial centers trying to escape the incredible hardships and intense labor of farm life. Coal miners literally sacrificed their lives to feed their families. Then from the 1960’s on into the 80’s vast majorities realized they could do better and wages/benefits and general working conditions improved dramatically (this began early in the century but culminated relatively late in the century) increasing the cost of everything.
3. American manufacturing, where it exists, is already highly automated. However, in general there is a better return on investment for the American investor class if they choose to invest in manufacturing overseas as opposed to domestically. Of course there are exceptions but it’s the case generally.
4. The investor class controls all significant political entities in the USA and western world and that will remain the case. Nothing meaningful will ever be done to “force” domestic manufacturing investment - and incentives that would induce it would be prohibitively expensive.
5. The USA is very close to the point where it will become incapable of defending itself in a sustained conflict - when that occurs it will all come tumbling down - either the standard of living in this country will come down for all but the extremely wealthy or we will be eliminated. In this country we enjoy a standard of living versus productivity that is not sustainable.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
Note that the chart I posted above relate to vehicle exports only. Production tells a similar story though, if anything it is more stark:
Absolute production:
Relative share of production:
China now produces about 1/3rd of the world's vehicles and is now the leading exporter (ref earlier chart). This has happened more rapidly than any global change before, in particular look at how quickly China has achieved what it took Japan decades to do. The US industry has mostly been focussed on the US domestic market and as a result production has remained stagnant.
Also note that China now produces more EVs than ICEVs.
For better or worse, Australia bit the bullet years ago by ending all tariffs and subsidy for local vehicle manufacturing. The industry, which was already in the throes of dying, finally collapsed and the last car made here was in 2017. The ending of vehicle manufacturing was incredibly painful for the people and communities who lost livelihoods and it hit the manufacturing hubs / states hard. We lost some cultural icons. But overall I suspect the resources have been better deployed in other ways and resulted in an overall economic improvement. Pockets however are worse off and will take a long time to recover.
We don't prohibit Chinese cars and we can choose from cars made the world over. Most EVs here come from China (even the Teslas).
Really, do you know what ASSumptions are best for ?
I guess that Rio-Tinto, Alcoa and several others can't read a map because they process aluminum IN Iceland, in fact, they are the greenest/cleanest smelters (Hydro & Geo-Thermal powered) in the world.
You may find these FACTS interesting...
List of aluminium smelters - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
A Question: Aluminum is a Highly Recyclable metal, right up there with Lead, Copper & Brass and has excellent value. So WHY are there Millions of Tons of Aluminum sitting in desert Airplane Boneyards ? There is stuff from WW2 to current decommissioned passenger jets and more... Even better, you do not have to Dig it up & process the boxite which is a huge $ saver too. I'm sure there are some amazing Excuses for that !
Iceland divided over aluminum's role in its future
Iceland divided over aluminum's role in its future
www.latimes.com
I apologize about the statement for faculties but they still ship ore for smelting. Which is more green shipping buxite to be processed with clean power, or local processing?
This is good example of Americans at work and being competitive……NOT.Inverter is Widow thumb and 4 daughters ROSIE.
Want ac attachment sure add $800 plus dollars. Want a wall mount add $100-$200. They give us reasons for want a Rosie.
No thanks
Ac attachment from chinese
Something like this should been envisioned long ago. Cheap priced too.
Edward Deming tried to help America ….. we crapped on him. To big to fail. The Japanese learned from him. The Chinese are getting there.
Stuff from japan before your time was called cheap jap junk. They changed all that. Became good quality by process …. Then Taiwan came later. Both now make good stuff same with chinese it will improve. Look at Harbor Freight. Of course prices will go up and wealth will be transferred. Oh well. Pass that crack pipe give me some more of the chinese fentanyl …. Keep the border open and let it flow. Drown our sorrows … there are old patterns and history being repeated. Most ppl fail.
I read chinese are training 100 engineers to our 1. They were also training about 100 special forces to our 1. Our tanks in WW2 were not the best but we made a lot of them real quick. The chinese are around 4x our population with friends around the world now. The chinese don’t do debt loan forgiveness. They take stuff. Sri Lanke and soon to be African ports and cities. Others like south America.
Votex are good. Imagine them in hands of their special forces 100 to our 1. When their aircraft carriers are built up …. you will see “change you can believe in.”
Import tariffs are paid by consumers - SCREWED. PPL ON BOTTOM ALWAYS GET SCREWED
Eber
Student of YouTube University
I remember Demmings TQA concept.
It worked well. Ford used it on thier F-150 for a bit and sold many.
But i am dating myself here.
I used TQA in P&G when I worked there years ago.
They called me into the management office and asked me what safe practices I was
violating to run such high efficiency and such low scrap.
I informed them that there was no stop condition that was not looked into in a manner to eliminate it
as a consideration happening again. They grilled me for a long time and then the lead tech got up and smugly told management that We had Everything covered. Heh, good times,
Bunch of buttheads.
They then developed a maintenance system based on that information and took credit for it.
WE also used Kepner-Tregoe’s Analytic Troubleshooting techniques. Which
made another colossal difference in the quality/ efficiency of the process.
Well, a bit off topic but once upon a time, we did believe in making good stuff.
It worked well. Ford used it on thier F-150 for a bit and sold many.
But i am dating myself here.
I used TQA in P&G when I worked there years ago.
They called me into the management office and asked me what safe practices I was
violating to run such high efficiency and such low scrap.
I informed them that there was no stop condition that was not looked into in a manner to eliminate it
as a consideration happening again. They grilled me for a long time and then the lead tech got up and smugly told management that We had Everything covered. Heh, good times,
Bunch of buttheads.
They then developed a maintenance system based on that information and took credit for it.
WE also used Kepner-Tregoe’s Analytic Troubleshooting techniques. Which
made another colossal difference in the quality/ efficiency of the process.
Well, a bit off topic but once upon a time, we did believe in making good stuff.
Opportunities missed...
yaleclimateconnections.org
The forgotten story of Jimmy Carter's White House solar panels » Yale Climate Connections
More than four decades ago, President Carter said the U.S. could harness “the power of the sun to enrich our lives as we move away from our crippling dependence on foreign oil.”
yaleclimateconnections.org
MajicDiver
Solar Enthusiast
I fail to see what opportunity was missed? Consider when the first internal combustion engines were conceived and “built” and when automobiles came into widespread use. Centuries. Even in these modern days technology takes much time to develop. The lithium battery chemistry most of us are using today (LFP) was not “discovered” until 1996. I’m not a fan of Carter but I see no problem with him putting up the panels, but to allege that it somehow shows a missed opportunity is ridiculous and little more than a jab at his political opponents. I propose that the only reason solar power generation has taken off in this country is due to the vast wealth created in our country by the fossil fuel production boom that has taken place since 2008 or so. I’m not sure how many people realize/understand how much better off middle class people in this country are as a result of it, and a good portion of that excess wealth is what has fueled solar product consumption in this country. Cheap oil and natural gas is the only reason the USA economy is not a utter disaster.Opportunities missed...
The forgotten story of Jimmy Carter's White House solar panels » Yale Climate Connections
More than four decades ago, President Carter said the U.S. could harness “the power of the sun to enrich our lives as we move away from our crippling dependence on foreign oil.”
robby
Photon Vampire
- Joined
- May 1, 2021
- Messages
- 4,295
A purely Chinese built and sold EV in the USA is a complete pipe dream, it ain't gonna happen!
They may partner with some established Western car company who is will re-badge the Vehicle under their own name and do all the Red Tape work involved, plus deal with the issues I listed below, but there goes that Super Low price.
From my experience dealing with Chinese companies they have Zero Interest in things like:
American Safety regulations and getting certified.
Long term Service and Support.
High levels of consistent quality control.
Dealing with the Legal system in the USA.
Stocking Parts for the life of the Vehicle.
Dealing with US government constantly changing regulations.
China sells things cheap because they bypass most of the Red Tape that Western manufacturers have to go through.
Some of you may think this Red Tape is the problem, but if you have ever been in a proper car accident you will be thankful that so much time effort and money went into all those safety features.
They may partner with some established Western car company who is will re-badge the Vehicle under their own name and do all the Red Tape work involved, plus deal with the issues I listed below, but there goes that Super Low price.
From my experience dealing with Chinese companies they have Zero Interest in things like:
American Safety regulations and getting certified.
Long term Service and Support.
High levels of consistent quality control.
Dealing with the Legal system in the USA.
Stocking Parts for the life of the Vehicle.
Dealing with US government constantly changing regulations.
China sells things cheap because they bypass most of the Red Tape that Western manufacturers have to go through.
Some of you may think this Red Tape is the problem, but if you have ever been in a proper car accident you will be thankful that so much time effort and money went into all those safety features.
MajicDiver
Solar Enthusiast
Agreed. The simple fact of the matter is in this country we place a higher value on quality of life than the Chinese and some other societies - most of Russian society being another large example. But, it is my prediction that we in this country are quickly getting to the point where we will not be able to afford most of our quality of life stuff such as safe automobiles. We afford them now only because we get very cheap stuff from countries like China- they will realize the value of what they are providing to us and it will begin to cease rapidly.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
That may be your experience however I would take an exported Chinese EV over an American one any day of the week. They are better built and much better value. As to service and support, the US brands have the absolute worst reputation here. Tesla is an anomaly, but then the Teslas we get are made in China. The biggest selling Ford model here is built in Thailand.
No car can be imported and sold here without meeting all the necessary regulatory requirements, including strict safety standards.
The big difference I guess is we have no car manufacturing industry to protect.
robby
Photon Vampire
- Joined
- May 1, 2021
- Messages
- 4,295
Okay can you point to something that says a typical Chinese EV is better built than a US or EU one?
Everything I read says the Chinese ones are complete crap in terms of durability and safety.
Thailand is closer to Australia so that makes sense. They make good vehicles in Thailand. They follow the recipe and don't skimp to make extra profit like the Chinese.
What Chinese EVs do they sell in Australia?