timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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Yes
That would be commercial production.
What ist your span between buying and selling electrical power?
- Thread starter rin67630
- Start date
That would be commercial production.
timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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I am the producer and the end user.
No unused capacity.
I have no problem sitting in the front yard, on a hot summer day. With a window air conditioner pointed at me. lol
In my location (Nevada USA) I earn a 92% kWh "credit" on power which I put in (rather than earning dollars). For new installations, this has been reduced to about 87%, but I received a higher rate because I installed several years ago, when they wanted to provide more encouragement for home Solar.
But NV Energy limited the size of my solar array, so that I would not make any net profit over the period of an entire year. In summer months (good sunlight), they keep my "extra credits" like a bank account, to be later "spent" by me in winter months. This differential (only 8%) is much smaller than the calculations used in other States by other Electric Utility companies. (My payback rate is among the very best in the USA.)
But, my bills also contain a fixed "connection charge" and fees totaling about $20 per month. Over the course of a year, output from my size-limited Solar Array falls short by about $60 more, for a total billed electric cost around $300.
But NV Energy limited the size of my solar array, so that I would not make any net profit over the period of an entire year. In summer months (good sunlight), they keep my "extra credits" like a bank account, to be later "spent" by me in winter months. This differential (only 8%) is much smaller than the calculations used in other States by other Electric Utility companies. (My payback rate is among the very best in the USA.)
But, my bills also contain a fixed "connection charge" and fees totaling about $20 per month. Over the course of a year, output from my size-limited Solar Array falls short by about $60 more, for a total billed electric cost around $300.
rin67630
Solar Enthusiast
That's a fantastic deal. I would love to get something similar. The Connection charges look fair, imho.
Ozark Tinkering
Solar Addict
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The basic price per watt doesn't tell the whole story. There are still fees to maintain the grid plus the minimum monthly hookup charges. Also the state still gets to collect tax from me for every watt I put to the grid.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
If home rooftop solar grid feed-in is credited at the same rate as imported energy, then the feed-in is being heavily subsidised and someone else, somewhere, is paying for that.
Solar PV is a generation source. It is not an energy distribution system.
When you buy energy from the grid you are paying for both. With a solar PV system you have only paid to generate energy.
The fair price for solar PV energy exported is the grid wholesale energy generation price at that time, plus any reasonable extra for it being a community good (e.g. reducing carbon emissions in fossil heavy grids).
Solar PV is a generation source. It is not an energy distribution system.
When you buy energy from the grid you are paying for both. With a solar PV system you have only paid to generate energy.
The fair price for solar PV energy exported is the grid wholesale energy generation price at that time, plus any reasonable extra for it being a community good (e.g. reducing carbon emissions in fossil heavy grids).
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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True but ... what would PG&E be paying per kWh between say 2:00 PM and 4:00 PM if all PV producers reached up and pulled their knife switch at the same time?
I would like us to do that - let PG&E and PUC discover the true value of the power we've been putting into the grid. Then they can pay us accordingly.
It would be interesting for sure.
The reality though is the utility has an energy cost and a distribution cost, and the distribution cost has started to eclipse the energy cost in many places. Your solar production during peak solar is most valuable when it is used close to your point of service. I am honestly curious if any primary substations on PG&E or SCE's grids have a period where then need to export due to rooftop solar. Secondary substations do for sure.
tigerwillow1
Solar Enthusiast
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Ditto for oregon. It's all politically driven.
2 to 4? Doubt they care. 6 to 10 is a bigger issue and not much to cut as the sun goes down.
Reality is the knife switch cuts every single day at sundown and the lights stay on (mostly). SCE super off-peak rates now include 2pm to 4pm as there is a surplus of solar generated electricity.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
In Australia wholesale energy generation costs make up 32% of the retail cost of electricity.
The split is:
Code:
Cost of supplying electricity to households (Australia 2020-21)
Network/transmission: 45%
Wholesale generation: 32%
Environmental: 10%
Retail costs: 10%
Retail margin: 3%
Source: https://www.accc.gov.au/Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Actual peak demand is about 3:00 PM to 6:00 PM.
The duck's back curve has a higher head in the evening, even though total demand is lower, because PV production has dropped off by then. The greatest demand for peaker plant generation would be earlier in the day if our PV wasn't generating.
Going green will be environmentally destructive
I hope anyone reading these sources understands, academically, how to evaluate sources for credibility. These sources not only fail credibility in one way or another, but in several cases don't support the poster's assertions, at all. So Newsweek , the US Goverment Energy commission , Forbes...
diysolarforum.com
If it weren't for our PV generation, not only would the utility have to burn more fossil fuel, they would have to construct additional power plants, possibly also more transmission & substations in some areas. Or find a way to have customers reduce consumption.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
if you separate actual demand from generation that is correct. The issue is that rooftop solar only shows up as net demand. By the time my generation gets back to the nearest substation it has been used by all my neighbors and the substation only sees the net of local solar and consumption. That also true of solar farms but they report their production to the System Operator and that is the only data the System Operator sees. If the utilities had better information systems and could report the sum of individual meters that were generating separately from the sum of meters that were consuming the data would be more useful but the net result would be the same.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Exactly.
The curves show "demand" and "net demand" peaking at 8:00 PM, which I don't believe.
There is some increased demand in the evening as consumers arrive home, turn on A/C, later lights.
But commercial/industrial demand is all day long, with increasing A/C in the afternoon. Occupied homes afternoon A/C too.
The Duck's Back curve is a lie, used to justify the claim value of PV is zero, even negative.
It is only the last kWh that isn't needed, that on occasion a neighboring state was actually paid to take.
The bulk of the kWh delivered by PV are highly valuable, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Which is the problem - power generators enjoy the profits they get burning natural gas to make electricity, which PV has severely cut into.
ISO is probably complicit in the lie.
"A reliable and accessible power grid
The California Independent System Operator (ISO) maintains reliability on one of the largest and most modern power grids in the world, and operates a transparent, accessible wholesale energy market. The organization works diligently around the clock to meet the electricity needs of consumers, while increasing the amount of renewable energy to usher in the clean, green grid of the future."
What we need is simply a mechanism to vary distributed PV so it doesn't exceed demand.
(also mechanism to vary distributed consumption, using available PV when possible rather than curtailing.)
And oversight to ensure utilities don't curtail PV just so they can burn fossil fuels.
Utilities need to be paid for the service they actually provide, which is carrying power between production and consumption by means of wires.
Standby and peaker generation needs to be paid for their capital equipment, which it idle part of the time and used when needed.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
My point was that the data does not include the demand from my neighbors because their demand is neutralized or offset by my generation..
I agree that is what is happening.
I know enough about data gathering to agree that the method of measurement has some inaccuracies that does not give us a true picture of real demand because it does not collect data about rooftop generation. I do trust the concept that NET is a mathematical difference between two numbers.
I would not go so far as to call it an intentional lie but I think the ISO and the utilities could do a better job of aggregating the data from rooftop solar. Whether it is a conspiracy or not, reasonable minds can differ. BTW, I am not trying to change your mind. I just want other readers to see another perspective. I think we can all agree that there is a problem in California with the grid and having enough electricity on some days.
In the years I have been messing around with batteries and solar, the problem has not been fixed. I have concluded that some dysfunction in government most likely will not fix the issue soon. Consequently I have directed some of my assets to give me a system that will allow me to ride through those issues. It is also a fun hobby and the other benefit is that I do not pay high rates for energy.
schmism
Solar Addict
in IL (USA) we get credit for everything we use. use 20kw/day, supply 20kw/sunhrs = zero bill. (well zero supply bill, there is still delivery fees and meter fees etc) the effect is I sell back at my current consumption rate. If I use 20kw and supply 24kw my monthly bill says I have a 4kw "credit" That credit carries over. It is never turned into a check that is paid to me. So i get paid $0.00? for extra? however I have the opertunity to use that credit at any time in the future..... 2 weeks of grey snowy days in winter?
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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"Lie" or not, PG&E's proposal to PUC would have resulted in rooftop solar paying net dollars to the utility for all power exported to the grid.
PUC's approved NEM-3.0 would have resulted in rooftop solar receiving a big fat $ZERO for all power exported to the grid.
Also, both as proposed and as approved, rooftop solar paying net dollars to PG&E for all power produced by PV and used by the household.
"Independent System Operators" likely serves paid producers and distribution, tries to maintain reliable power to consumers (who only pay when they receive power.) Not likely to have any interest in consumer-owned PV to reduce sales of the power companies.
An estimate of distributed consumer-owned PV could be presented on those graphs. It is a critical part of grid stability, because hiding behind it are loads that don't go away when clouds cover the sun.
There ought to be charges for connection (paid by all), charges for power drawn (paid by all), and "demand" charges or similar for pattern of drawing power, e.g. a premium for high occasional draw during days of poor sun. That way, PV users who do rely on the grid for backup pay their fair share, and have incentive to not do that if they can curtail consumption or install batteries.
The only question is who is knowingly presenting intentional lies, and who is just formatting colorful PowerPoint slides and making presentations.
Incompetence Abounds. Many people parrot facts and figures they don't understand.
Never presume malfeasance when mere incompetence would suffice. But there will be Evil Geniuses plotting their accumulation of wealth (or power) at our expense.
I wish. For many years I had 12 months of net metering, and on anniversary "true-up" where I pay for net consumption or any net surplus is deleted from the books. Later, changed to $0.025/kWh payment for net surplus.
I'd rather surplus carried over to future years.
PUC's approved NEM-3.0 would have resulted in rooftop solar receiving a big fat $ZERO for all power exported to the grid.
Also, both as proposed and as approved, rooftop solar paying net dollars to PG&E for all power produced by PV and used by the household.
"Independent System Operators" likely serves paid producers and distribution, tries to maintain reliable power to consumers (who only pay when they receive power.) Not likely to have any interest in consumer-owned PV to reduce sales of the power companies.
An estimate of distributed consumer-owned PV could be presented on those graphs. It is a critical part of grid stability, because hiding behind it are loads that don't go away when clouds cover the sun.
There ought to be charges for connection (paid by all), charges for power drawn (paid by all), and "demand" charges or similar for pattern of drawing power, e.g. a premium for high occasional draw during days of poor sun. That way, PV users who do rely on the grid for backup pay their fair share, and have incentive to not do that if they can curtail consumption or install batteries.
The only question is who is knowingly presenting intentional lies, and who is just formatting colorful PowerPoint slides and making presentations.
Incompetence Abounds. Many people parrot facts and figures they don't understand.
Never presume malfeasance when mere incompetence would suffice. But there will be Evil Geniuses plotting their accumulation of wealth (or power) at our expense.
I wish. For many years I had 12 months of net metering, and on anniversary "true-up" where I pay for net consumption or any net surplus is deleted from the books. Later, changed to $0.025/kWh payment for net surplus.
I'd rather surplus carried over to future years.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
I separated this quote because I wanted to point out that since deregulation in California 20 years ago the "power generators" are different from the public utilities and Investor Owned Utilities. The IOUs we're required to sell off their generation and generation is performed by profit making entities that sell into the market. That is the same process with Solar Farms and Wind Farms. So not all power generators are fossil fuel and in fact State policy favors solar generation so fossil fuel generators are at a disadvantage when the wind blows or sun shines. This is because fossil fuel cannot compete with wind and solar both on price and because State policy favors renewable generation.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
I believe it when the lights go off. Whether that is actually 7PM or 9PM doe not matter to me. That is not Enron gaming the system. It was unfortunate that the CAISO was brand new when Enron showed up with their market gaming strategies.
I do not think that is what is happening now. I have met several ISO employees and they are real people that believe in their mission. I don't know the politics at a higher level so you are wise to be suspicious like I am about anything involving energy in California. I just do not believe in conspiracies. I do believe in undue and innappropriate influence.
I think it is also important to separate the issues. What is happening at the CPUC with Net Metering and what is happening daily in the marketplace at CAISO are different issues that are only connected because they involve energy.
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