"When solar power leaves you feeling burned"

[Overtaxed]

It's not the utilities who get screwed, it's less well-off renters and others who can't install solar. They pay extra to cover the freeloaders. It's not noticeable when rooftop solar penetration is only a percent or two, but the scheme inevitably breaks down as penetration grows.

Exactly. The more of us who install solar, the more costly power becomes for others. And the more of us that disconnect, the more costly the grid becomes for others.

You can only claim the federal solar tax credit once. If the taxes you owe are less than the value of the credit, you can roll over the remainder towards future income tax burdens.

Once per install, right? If I put up 10KW of panels this year on the house, then another 10KW next year, I believe you can claim it for each install on the same property.

There are several issues with the above.

Both are good points, however, in some areas (like mine), it certainly seems like the power company is doing everything they can to stop solar. In my area, they require you to move to TOU rates if you have solar; super off peak (around 6 hours, IIRC) is less than my current rate, everything else is higher to MUCH higher on the TOU plan. So, sure, I can do it, but without batteries to peak shave, it might wind up costing me more for less power consumed, in fact, it almost certainly would because the on peak and critical peak rates are so much higher. Also, they prohibit charging (I couldn't find this is writing, but all my calls to Duke they said the same thing, you cannot use our power to charge your batteries); I have no idea how they'd know, but, if you charge using their power during super off peak, you risk disconnection (again, I couldn't find any verbiage to this effect, so maybe it's make believe, but in my many calls to them, a few people said "No charging").

It's kind of a "heads I win, tails you lose" plan. Sure, I can cut down on the number of KW consumed, but I'll pay more for each KW. Duke would love that, I'd be putting in solar to their benefit rather than my own?!

 

[G00SE]

To get anywhere near the grid's level of reliability for my home, I'd need a ton of battery. 500-1000KWh would probably be the target (500KWh would give me a week of power stored). At least 50-100K in just battery (although to be fair, everything else is a rounding error, 100K in battery, 20K in "everything else").

that’s a separate “problem” in of itself imo

 

[Overtaxed]

that’s a separate “problem” in of itself imo

LOL, yeah, get a smaller house. Big house, all electric for heating cooling. Honestly, compared to my neighbors, I'm on the "better" side if you compare KWH/sq/ft. Pretty much did everything I can to reduce consumption passively (insulation, windows, high SEER ACs, LED everything, etc). The only thing left is the thermostat and sitting in the dark.

 

[Hedges]

Big house (depending on architecture), surface area is smaller in proportion to square footage.
Elephant vs. shrew.

You're supposed to move into a rectangular apartment building - "The Projects."
Ideally, one with many inner units having no windows or walls to the outside.

Or at least, have a bigger family. Then you'll use more resources, but less per capita.

 

[G00SE]

LOL, yeah, get a smaller house. Big house, all electric for heating cooling. Honestly, compared to my neighbors, I'm on the "better" side if you compare KWH/sq/ft. Pretty much did everything I can to reduce consumption passively (insulation, windows, high SEER ACs, LED everything, etc). The only thing left is the thermostat and sitting in the dark.

Didn’t mean it in a negative way, just that often times consumption is the real prohibitor for us

 

[Osmethne]

Also, they prohibit charging (I couldn't find this is writing, but all my calls to Duke they said the same thing, you cannot use our power to charge your batteries); I have no idea how they'd know, but, if you charge using their power during super off peak, you risk disconnection (again, I couldn't find any verbiage to this effect, so maybe it's make believe, but in my many calls to them, a few people said "No charging").

I'm not saying Duke didn't say this but I don't see how this could be legal. Electric utilities are common carriers. They don't get to dictate how we use the power they sell us. It's none of their business.

 

[Hedges]

If you charge batteries off-peak, then backfeed batteries into the grid during peak times.
The rules requiring them to take clean alternative energy while crediting you at retail wouldn't allow you to do that with other sources.

Of course they will pay other companies which do exactly that. Probably at different rates. maybe at a premium, as a peaker plant.

If you have a UPS, you can charge its batteries from grid to use later.

 

[SunDave]

You can only claim the federal solar tax credit once. If the taxes you owe are less than the value of the credit, you can roll over the remainder towards future income tax burdens.

Hi Tulex,
I would really recommend just referencing the IRS info. You can claim it once on a given system. Saying you can only claim it once as an absolute statement gives many the wrong impression.

ww.irs.gov/credits-deductions/residential-clean-energy-credit

 

[JRH]

My local NPR just ran this story that I found pretty interesting. Not surprising to me at all but still it's something you might consider sharing with your friends and family who are asking you about going solar with someone that knocked on thier door or who bought them and 30 others suckers a lobster dinner to come listen to great new opportunity.

When solar power leaves you feeling burned​

The potential of rooftop solar is being squandered. Time’s economic correspondent Alana Semuels reports a cautionary tale, and writer Andrew Moseman explains why the country isn’t ready for a solar revolution.

Damn, a lobster….!
when I went to a timeshare presentation event years ago I only got a 7 dollar crock pot.
Inflation rears it’s ugly head.

 

[Overtaxed]

If you charge batteries off-peak, then backfeed batteries into the grid during peak times.
The rules requiring them to take clean alternative energy while crediting you at retail wouldn't allow you to do that with other sources.

Of course they will pay other companies which do exactly that. Probably at different rates. maybe at a premium, as a peaker plant.

If you have a UPS, you can charge its batteries from grid to use later.

^^ Yes, I suspect this was actually what they were trying to say. Can't charge off peak and backfeed that power during critical peak. Again, no idea how they would know, KW's are fungible; no, that's not the KW you sold me, it's the one my solar panel made, I used the one you sold me 5 minutes ago. But I suspect the intent is to prevent charging during off peak and feed in during peak for credit.

Don't get me started on how stupid that is, peak and critical peak are exactly the times they would want backfeed. Of course, they'd have to pay a higher rate for my power then, so, suddenly they'd prefer to make their own?

 

[Overtaxed]

I'm not saying Duke didn't say this but I don't see how this could be legal. Electric utilities are common carriers. They don't get to dictate how we use the power they sell us. It's none of their business.

You'd think that, but, by their reading, if you put in solar, they demand a move to TOU rates. That's them "dictating" how we use and consume the power. I wonder if you take their 200A circuit and tie is ONLY to a charger/battery bank, and then, on the other side, tie that battery to an inverter and solar if you'd be OK? It's so stupid as to be mind numbing, but I kind of suspect they couldn't force you to move to TOU if you did that, there's no coupling of the solar to their system.

 

[Hedges]

Of course, they'd have to pay a higher rate for my power then, so, suddenly they'd prefer to make their own?

Bingo.
Same reason they would rather we didn't make our on electricity with PV panels, and proposed a "photon tax".

And if they can't find them anywhere, would rather the grid just collapsed.

I wonder if you take their 200A circuit and tie is ONLY to a charger/battery bank, and then, on the other side, tie that battery to an inverter and solar if you'd be OK?

Nothing wrong with an on-line UPS. Could be ChargeVerter and EG4 inverter. It is one way to guarantee no backfeed.

You could probably install a grid-tie zero export system and not be required to go TOU. Depending on their exact rules.

 

[Steve777]

Interesting how Duke wants to prohibit pulling grid energy during low use (eg cheap) times and selling it back to them during high use (eg expensive) times. Our PoCo (Xcel) has a program where they will give a credit/rebate for buying certain battery systems (Powerwall and one other I forget) but you sign a contract to let them pull up to 60% of that battery power out when they need it, some number of times a year.

Presumably Xcel is using these agreements as battery storage for the grid. I have not been interested in it enough to check the details, but I would assume they are not paying you the high use rate for the KWHs they take. But even so, it seems to be the exact philosophy as Duke on this...

 

[Osmethne]

They're onto you Duke! Run!

 

[OzSolar]

Damn, a lobster….!
when I went to a timeshare presentation event years ago I only got a 7 dollar crock pot.
Inflation rears it’s ugly head.

Bingo! Filet mignon was also an option. Pretty sure you'd have to shoot your way out though.

I had a stack of glossy postcard invites but in a rare fit if tidying I tossed them just the other day.

Couldn't resist... They got the red sticker!!!

 

[JRH]

Bingo! Filet mignon was also an option. Pretty sure you'd have to shoot your way out though.

I had a stack of glossy postcard invites but in a rare fit if tidying I tossed them just the other day.

Couldn't resist... They got the red sticker!!!

That’s funny as hell and true… a lot of those TS guys moved into the solar sales/ installation arena while it’s not regulated or overseen heavily….they are slippery as a leaking jug of STP.

 

[OzSolar]

That’s funny as hell and true… a lot of those TS guys moved into the solar sales/ installation arena while it’s not regulated or overseen heavily….they are slippery as a leaking jug of STP.

Right?!?

It's actually stunningly comparable to solar sales people.

When timeshare sales people get together and share scary stories they aren't talking about the Boogeyman, they are talking about solar sales people.

 

[Overtaxed]

Right?!?

It's actually stunningly comparable to solar sales people.

When timeshare sales people get together and share scary stories they aren't talking about the Boogeyman, they are talking about solar sales people.

That's been my experience as well, I've tried 3 different local installers, all of them make used cars look like an honest profession.

 

[Tulex]

Hi Tulex,
I would really recommend just referencing the IRS info. You can claim it once on a given system. Saying you can only claim it once as an absolute statement gives many the wrong impression.

ww.irs.gov/credits-deductions/residential-clean-energy-credit

My post was just a cut and paste from a tax site. The relevant part was about leasing.

 

[Zwy]

I am not aware of any restrictions of primary or secondary residence or a corporate entity for the tax credit.

Commercial business is 15% tax credit the first year plus a full year's depreciation, then the remaining cost depreciated out.

That makes an incentive for a business to install solar if the earnings were up for the year. The cost was always depreciable but tax credit gives an extra boost the first year.