Winch power

noenegdod

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Need some advice. I am building a truck, intended purpose is hard off-roading. It has a very small low profile living/storage/systems area. I have been trying to educate myself but to be honest the amount of knowledge you have to have to make good choices and find the right suppliers/products is more than I have time to acquire. Being completely honest I am looking for a bit of spoon feeding.

I have built trucks like this before and one of the biggest issues has been battery capacity and recovery time when extended duration and/or heavy winching is required. In the past with dual lead acid batteries, after 2 or 3 minutes of heavy winching batteries are exhausted to the point winching performance has seriously declined and you are best to sit there for a while and let the truck charge. If you have a legitimate 8 to 10 minutes of winching you could be there for a couple hours waiting for the LA batteries to recover to make it the last 30 seconds.

Here is what I think I want to do from the 10,000’ view:

I have a Yamaha EF2400iSHC inverter generator capable of 2kW continuous.

My intention is to use this inverter/charger:

http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/freedom-sw-12v_newgen.aspx

and 8 or 12 of these 200ah cells (or similar) in 2 or 3 12v batteries:

https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/200Ah-CALB-SE-Batteries

I have no idea what BMS to use. If 2 batteries they need to be capable of at least 250amps. If 3 batteries then at least 160 amps.

All to power this winch:

http://www.warriorwinches.com/warrior-winches/premium-winches/samurai-20000-electric-winch-synthetic#

Winch specs:

Line Pull lbs (kgs)Line Speed
ft/min (m/min)
Line Speed 24v
ft/min (m/min)
Amp Draw 12vAmp Draw 24v
019.7 (6.0)13.8 (4.4)10040
6000 (2728)7.2 (2.2)6.9 (2.1)220100
10000 (4545)5.6 (1.7)5.9 (1.8)320140
12500 (5682)4.9 (1.5)5.2 (1.6)350180
14000 (6350)4.6 (1.4)4.6 (1.4)380200
17500 (7938)3.0 (0.9)3.9 (1.2)450250
20000 (9072)3.6 (0.9)3.3 (1.0)480265
I had thought to use the 24v version but its no load line speed is painfully slow and not only is it still slower under full load but it pulls way more than half the current of the 12v.
The idea is that if I have a huge and/or long pull, I pull the cord on the generator and start winching. Winches can usually only tolerate a 50% duty cycle under load and if operating at 480amps you are probably best to operate at about 20%, the generator is charging the whole time. There are other loads but these can be disabled while winching if necessary. I have no intention of any solar in the system at this time, I like to park in the shade. I might add a small amount at some time just to maintain the system during long idle periods if that makes any sense.

If anyone can provide me with input/direction/caution it is much appreciated.



Tim
 

newbostonconst

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You need a really really big battery....I think you have enough knowledge to do this.

I don't know if lithium is a good option for this application because of that current draw for that amount of time.....

Buy 4 lead acid?
 

noenegdod

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I was afraid of that. I had been told lead acid was a better option for this by someone but they seemed a little unsure. If Im going lead acid its a cake walk, the lithium is what has me a bit unsure.

Im still interested in any ideas to use lithium just to save weight and gain the performance/efficiency. Just to push a little further on your concerns over current draw and time, the batteries linked above have a maximum constant current of 200amps and a 3 minute pulse maximum of 400 amps. With 3 batteries (12 cells) Id only be pulling 160 amps from each battery and if the generator is powering the charger and it is supplying its full 150amps it is claimed it can do Id be down to 110 amps from each battery.

Thanks again for your input.
 

Craig

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How long do you think your max pull time would be?
10 minutes?

12 LTO cells could give you 800 amps at 12 volts for 6 minutes or 400 amps for 12 minutes
18 cells could give you 400 amps for 20 minutes.

Plus whatever your generator could make up. Which looks like 150 or so more amps I bet you could get 20 minutes with 12 cells and your generator.

You are looking at about 800 bucks though for 12 cells and bms
 

noenegdod

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Winch motors dont cool very well so for this winch at medium loads, lets say in the range of 200-350 amps you could probably get away with 1 minute winching and 1 minute cooling. Once the winch is pulling 480 amps it is probably into 15-20 seconds winching and 1-1.5 minutes cooling. I doubt youd get away with even 2 minutes of straight pulling drawing 480amps without damaging the motor. The worst stuck I was ever in I spent 6 hours in the hole. Total winching time was maybe 15-20 min, the rest of the time was waiting for batteries to charge.
 
Last edited:

Craig

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ok so a 6 pack of LTO cells would do you fine they work like super capacitors. The car stereo guys use them all the time for the big amps since they draw massive current.

a 40Ah LTO cell can charge and discharge at 400 amps although I do not know how big of wire you would need to push that much power.
 

noenegdod

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Watched Wills videos on them a while ago and again just now. Gonna have to think on the LTO. Ignoring cost, what would the reasons be for going with LTO instead of LiFePO4 cells. All I can come up with is the fact Im in Canada so the low temp tolerance is great but I can work around that. The lower efficiency is a bummer when working with limited current to charge but not a huge deal. They look like they are about half the price/amp hr which is nice.
 

Dooug

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Seems like a hydraulic winch spares you all this battery trouble.

What kind of rig is this one that a 20k winch is required?
 

noenegdod

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Hydraulic winches have their own issues namely they dont work when the engine is not running. That aside, the main reason I dont want one is because the steering on this vehicle is full hydraulic. Winching being very demanding causes more strain on the system, another point of failure and if the motor grenades it contaminates and results in the likely failure of all steering. Hydraulic winch is off the table.
 

Dooug

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Ever seen these? Based in washington

Eliminates the dc/ac/dc conversion that would be happening with your yamaha/xantrex plan. But doesnt provide AC for your house unit.

Would probably be worth upgrade your alternator, or doubling up for when you are still running.

Still curious about what kind of rig your building.
 

noenegdod

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Yup, really noisy compared to my Yamaha is short over 500 watts in comparison.

Power when winching is AC to DC, thats it. Its AC-DC-AC for as small number of other appliances, mainly a tiny AC unit.

Already considered a high power alternator but you have to be revving the engine to get the output. This is the one I was considering: https://www.mechman.com/alternators/e-series-500-amp-billet-gm-truck/

The truck is a 1997 Isuzu NPR. Its first 22 years was as a box truck before I bought it in Ontario, California and drove it to Calgary, Alberta. Its been converted to 4WD, trussed, locked, parallel 4 link with pan hard and full hydro Dana 60 in the front and a trussed, locked, dual triangulated 14 bolt in the rear. Stock 5.7 and 4l80e trans with a black box underdrive and NP205 transfer case. Should be driving in a month and then starting on the container for the rear. This is what it looks like now:
 

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Supervstech

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Cool rig!

I ABSOLUTELY FREAKING HATE the short cables these winches come with...

75’ (24M) is nigh useless when stuck... ya really need a pair of dual pulley snatch blocks, to get unstuck with this size load... and 24M just won’t pull ya far... harbor freight stocks a 100 synthetic winch cable now... so, that’s an option.

Pulling this size vehicle out straight pulling is ROUGH on winches. I’m a fan of pullies spreading the load.
 

Dooug

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The alternator you posted puts out 200 amps at idle! Thats more than the xantrex puts out, but does require you to be running.

I'm a big fan of keep it simple stupid. I also try not to put myself in a position to get stuck when alone...especially stuck enough to have to winch while shut off.

That build is sweet, ill look for it when im passing through calgary!
 

Supervstech

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Yup, really noisy compared to my Yamaha is short over 500 watts in comparison.

Power when winching is AC to DC, thats it. Its AC-DC-AC for as small number of other appliances, mainly a tiny AC unit.

Already considered a high power alternator but you have to be revving the engine to get the output. This is the one I was considering: https://www.mechman.com/alternators/e-series-500-amp-billet-gm-truck/

The truck is a 1997 Isuzu NPR. Its first 22 years was as a box truck before I bought it in Ontario, California and drove it to Calgary, Alberta. Its been converted to 4WD, trussed, locked, parallel 4 link with pan hard and full hydro Dana 60 in the front and a trussed, locked, dual triangulated 14 bolt in the rear. Stock 5.7 and 4l80e trans with a black box underdrive and NP205 transfer case. Should be driving in a month and then starting on the container for the rear. This is what it looks like now:
I like the cribs under the stands... I saw a garage with one of these trucks up on metal... WHEEL RAMPS!! I could not believe it...
 

willo

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I just went through this - I'm building a 24v winch system for my land cruiser.
In the end, I decided to use a pair of AGMs with a dedicated 24v alternator.
Lithium BMS do alot of on/off at the BMS limits - this isn't great for normal alternators, thus my decision to use a pair of AGMs.

My winch is a Warn 8274 that's getting a RED winches 24v Ox Motor.
 

noenegdod

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Pulling this size vehicle out straight pulling is ROUGH on winches. I’m a fan of pullies spreading the load.

Its an easy thing to miss but the 20k lbs winch has a gear ratio of 430:1, almost double what smaller winches have so it basically has a snatch block built in which is why line speed is so slow. Because of this comment I am actually thinking of going with a 14500 24v winch with much higher line speeds (gear ratio is (250:1) and just using a snatch block when needed. It does require more cells but one less BMS and reduced wire cost. in all it will cost more but not a deal breaker.

After a ton of consideration Im still planning to go forward with my original plan. I did some more thinking about just using a high power alternator however if it ever fails, getting a replacement in Alaska, NWT or Yukon will be difficult and probably take a week or more to actually get. I do thank everyone for alternate ideas, but what I am looking for now is people to poke holes in my plan and point out fatal issues.

Yamaha generator, Xantrex sw3024 (24v now instead of 12) inverter, and 16 of the same 200ah batteries linked above. Its not cheap. Dont care. Just need to know if anyone can point out a fatal flaw or down side (beside cost) of going this route. Thanks!
 

noenegdod

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I have a question into the supplier but does anyone know how long this BMS can tolerate being used above its constant discharge current? Constant is 200A and peak is 530A. If this can tolerate 260A for 30 seconds at a time (around a 20% duty cycle) I can get away with one 24v battery instead of needing to spend another $2500 on a second.

 

willo

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Yeah I'm gonna say don't drop that load through a BMS. Drop a contactor inline and direct wire.
The only purpose the BMS is serving there is to provide cutoff for charging and discharge. Use a proper HV contactor for this - especially since it's only used when the winch is running.
 

noenegdod

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That seems like a good idea, at least on the surface. Bit scared to loose the over current protection in case of a short but can add some additional conductor armor just in case. Thanks!
 
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