Sunny island 6048
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I keep hope that I will see these on sale some place, But so far I just can't see myself spending $1k+ on a breaker box. http://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=38
can you provide any pics? i am in the same boat.
Kip are you doing a single 120v or dual inverter for 240v? I guess it does not matter but I suggest you buy a 240v panel such as this to feed from your SMA. Basic 240v panel. Even if your doing 120v you can use the cheap 240v home panels.
240v dual inverter. Trying to get ot 200a with 4 SMA Sunny Islands. I have 30 of the SunPower 327w panels. and 3 Midnite Solar Classic CP250s. I purchased 2 of the Sunny Islands and was thinking of getting 2 more after Christmas. I am still building the solar shed but hope to be producing later this spring. I think the only purchased needed is a type of e-panel/load panel. Don't know anything else to buy that can house DC and VAC breakers. Thanks for the sub-panel idea.
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why are you running panels at 60v strings? I would think you want your panel strings more near 200v? Use the classic sizing tool https://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Classic-String-Sizing-Tool.pdf
At the time was trying to keep everything close to 48v, could have done 240v 6 amp
4 panels
Maast
Compulsive Tinkerer
Just saw this, from what I figured it looks like the midnite 250 max input amps is around 15A working backward from its max output of 56A at 58V = 3248W. I'm looking at the same panels too 3 parallel strings of 4 panels (12 total) would produce 3925W so it'd clip a bit and saturate the controller in bright cool days. But since I live in the soggy pacific NW I'm good with that, I need every watt I can get during the winter.
here its cloudy, and humid, the 327 to my surprise work well on cloudy days,even had snow on it 2" still making power, pretty sure i am building it with 80% used panels may get 90% on those rare clear crisp days do i need to have all the equipment ready for 120% hate over kill. $$$$
Hedges
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DC Solar Bankruptcy - so THAT's how I got such a deal on a pallet of Sunny Islands. Finally took the plunge 15 years after going grid tie.
Batteries - I went with an undersized bank of 8, 6V 405Ah SunXtender AGM. That's 20 kWh (24h), can accept charge rate as high as 2C (40 kW) according to manufacturer. If the inverters are producing rated 4x 6kW for 24 kW output, the batteries will hit 70% DOD limit in 20 minutes. With about 10 or 12 kW PV currently on line, the battery bank is only 1/3 or 1/2 the minimum size recommended by SMA.
Purpose for the batteries is just to light up the island grid during utility outages, so PV can run the house. Not intended do do anything except provide surge to start motors and float he rest of the time (and of course keep minor loads running until sunrise.)
Frequency shift with Sunny Boy: Doesn't work with "backup" mode and RS-485 as far as I can tell. They do switch to backup mode and widen frequency, but they don't throttle down power output as frequency ramps up from 61 Hz to 62 Hz. Just bang offline around 64.8 Hz, back on around 63 Hz. The relays are loud, a dead giveaway.
But it does work with "Island" mode. Nice smooth adjustment of power output as I switch loads. Somebody goofed up the boolean logic and somebody else didn't do a good job testing (code for "backup" must have bugs.)
I'll have to try toggling my 10 kW electric furnace off and back on to see if the undersized battery bank is really a problem or not. (just as a test, I'm not planning to run resistance heating off solar!) I'd like to tell Sunny Island that 800A is allowable charge rate, but to charge slower from the grid. I don't recall two separate parameters. My grid current limit setting (90A) would limit charging to 450A, still more than I want. With PV and grid it just might try to hit 800A.
What I'm working on now is imbalance of current feeding through paralleled Sunny Islands. Cables are precisely matched (matched conduit lengths and branches like headers.) Long 60' wire runs expected to balance it, but only 0.020 ohms. Suspect breaker resistance.
Batteries - I went with an undersized bank of 8, 6V 405Ah SunXtender AGM. That's 20 kWh (24h), can accept charge rate as high as 2C (40 kW) according to manufacturer. If the inverters are producing rated 4x 6kW for 24 kW output, the batteries will hit 70% DOD limit in 20 minutes. With about 10 or 12 kW PV currently on line, the battery bank is only 1/3 or 1/2 the minimum size recommended by SMA.
Purpose for the batteries is just to light up the island grid during utility outages, so PV can run the house. Not intended do do anything except provide surge to start motors and float he rest of the time (and of course keep minor loads running until sunrise.)
Frequency shift with Sunny Boy: Doesn't work with "backup" mode and RS-485 as far as I can tell. They do switch to backup mode and widen frequency, but they don't throttle down power output as frequency ramps up from 61 Hz to 62 Hz. Just bang offline around 64.8 Hz, back on around 63 Hz. The relays are loud, a dead giveaway.
But it does work with "Island" mode. Nice smooth adjustment of power output as I switch loads. Somebody goofed up the boolean logic and somebody else didn't do a good job testing (code for "backup" must have bugs.)
I'll have to try toggling my 10 kW electric furnace off and back on to see if the undersized battery bank is really a problem or not. (just as a test, I'm not planning to run resistance heating off solar!) I'd like to tell Sunny Island that 800A is allowable charge rate, but to charge slower from the grid. I don't recall two separate parameters. My grid current limit setting (90A) would limit charging to 450A, still more than I want. With PV and grid it just might try to hit 800A.
What I'm working on now is imbalance of current feeding through paralleled Sunny Islands. Cables are precisely matched (matched conduit lengths and branches like headers.) Long 60' wire runs expected to balance it, but only 0.020 ohms. Suspect breaker resistance.
great to hear, I am about to wire mine up too, your info helps, got to figure out the setup, did you find any youtube on it? like to watch than read a 200 page book
@Hedges Sound like you know what you doing so going to guess your up on firmware updates. SMA support is pretty darn good. 2c is a little crazy for AGM to me. 12kw of solar is gonna cook them. what does your bat voltage look like when backup mode when that solar hits? I suspect its rising fast hence your just getting the 3stage output.
Hedges
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Hooking up one or several Sunny Island is simple enough. Most of those 200 pages cover many parameters. The quick-start menu walks you through basic settings, just need to look up what choices mean (e.g. 2phase4 is 4 Sunny Island, two per phase).
Electrical is fairly basic if you understand what it is supposed to do and know wiring resistance, ampacity, fusing requirements.
I got away with a single 3/4" flexible conduit to each SI for AC. It carries one ground, one neutral, two hots (utility grid and island grid.) Two inverters each had conduit to a "T", then 1 1/4" conduit to another "T" joining two pairs of SI, then 2" conduit to to a "T" connecting breaker panels for utility grid and island. The wires could have all passed through Sunny Island on the way from utility grid to island, with separate ground and neutral each way through separate 3/4" conduit, but I routed the output back parallel to the input through the same conduit. (Neutral will only carry difference in current between grid and island, and difference between SI on two phases.)
The key if you stack two SI on the same phase, and are on-grid not off, is that resistance of parallel wires have to be identical because that's the only thing that causes current to split equally. Each SI can handle 56A, but with two in parallel if total 112A is drawn, it'll never be perfectly matched. Either one SI will have to source some current to stay below 56A or it'll disconnect from the grid (same for feeding PV in to grid, but with battery full all it could do is disconnect.)
I'm sometimes seeing 25% to 33% imbalance when I read the display on Slaves. I suspect a circuit breaker has greater resistance than 60' of 6 ga wire, and imbalance between two breakers causes imbalanced current. I'm investigating "conditioning" the new breakers by cycling them many times, alternate model breakers, fuses instead, and other techniques. My setup can tolerate some imbalance because I programmed 90A maximum due to 100A fused circuit branching to two separately fused 6 ga rather than 4 ga circuits (ampacity derates with several wires in a conduit.) Max imbalance 56A & 34A if resistance ratios 1.65:1 would still deliver 90A.
I did view SMA's video on communication between Sunny Island and Sunny Boy. Oversimplified. I prefer to read manuals, see which jumpers are needed. One document "rs485cabling1-42686.pdf" shows the details needed. It assumes you'll have a monitoring device (e.g. Sunny Boy Control) which will have the needed pull-up & pull-down. If not used, you need to install those jumpers in one of the Sunny Boys. At least with my short wires it's OK to keep the jumpers installed in the Sunny Boy whether or not the monitoring device is connected.
Another issue I had was 10000TLUS-12 was not found by by Sunny Boy Control even though SWR-2500U was found. Maybe would have worked with newer firmware? I installed Web Connect (Ethernet) module, used a router & laptop with Sunny Explorer to see and set parameters (needed Grid Guard code, also PUK to bypass password and change.) The default = UL1741 vs. Island were under Grid Monitor menu. backup = In All Phases was under Device menu. Frequency Start/Stop were under AC menu (just checking, didn't need to change frequency limits.)
So far, frequency shift control of PV inverter output has only worked with "Island" not "Backup" setting. SB does recognize RS-485 commands and switches to off-grid frequency range with "Backup", but doesn't reduce power output. Haven't heard back from SMA if that is a known issue, is limited to 10000TLUS-12, or if other models have the same issue. The new SB7.7-1SP-US-41 are only going to work with "Island" because they don't have RS-485. For European model SI, WebConnect is supported. Maybe that will come to the US, but probably for the 6.0H and 8.0H only, if another poster is correct that SI-6048 is to be replaced with those.
Hedges
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Firmware not 100% up to date. Notes for SI-6048 firmware only mention features related to lithium batteries, so I didn't install those. My SI already has version 7.302 which supports lithium, but I'm using AGM.
I've considered updating Sunny Boy Control firmware, maybe it would then see 10000TLUS-12 not just SWR-2500U, but the notes don't document when or if such support was added.
Maybe an update for 10000TLUS-12 firmware would support frequency shift power control in backup mode, but I haven't found firmware for it.
Yes, 2C is high. What I'm trying to do is get away with 405 Ah battery with my present 12kW PV, possible future 22 kW PV. If I was getting 20 kW PV generation and had a 20 kW load that suddenly shut off, maybe SI is supposed to shove the current into the battery for a couple seconds until frequency shift has been performed. That's why I would like it to allow 800A just briefly, rather than throwing up its hands and quitting. But then drop to maybe 50A or whatever would be a nice gentle recharge rate. I need to read through parameters and see what max current SI quick-start set after I told it 405 Ah size battery.
SunXtender says any unlimited charge current is acceptable so long as voltages aren't exceeded, and inrush as high as 5C. I suppose 2C meets that for a discharged battery but probably not when fully charged. SMA says use 100 Ah per kW of PV to avoid system failures. I'm trying to skimp a great deal on batteries because they're the most expensive part of the system and will never be used except during an occasional power failure. Batteries are cheap compared to what I paid for grid-tie 15 years ago, but today new AGM 405 Ah 48V costs me as much as four SI-6048-10 (new!) or 14 kW SunPower 327W panels or four 10000TLUS-12 used.
Cooking batteries: Although SI manual talks about a fan control to vent battery room and prevent build-up of gasses, it is controlled by battery temperature so probably really for cooling. I'm considering hooking that up. From what I've read, temperature control (and avoiding 100% charge and discharge) is what gives lithium batteries in Tesla and Volt such a long life vs. Leaf.
Hedges
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Here are some settings read from my Sunny Islands and from the manuals.
I have a system with four SI-6048-12 & 405 Ah battery, and another system with one SI-5048 & 100 Ah battery.
Parameter 222.01 maximum battery charge current can be set from 10A to 1200A. SI-5048 manual says default 1200A and SI-6048 manual says default 61A. No system would ever hit 1200A from Sunny Islands because maximum four per cluster and peak 140A from each SI-6048. But, could have external charge controller and shunt. SI could observe high external current and avoid adding current which would exceed 1200A total.
Battery bank can be 100 Ah to 10,000 Ah. 1200A would be 0.12C for 10,000 Ah.
MY SI-5048 shows 55A, not 1200A. Probably an error in the manual, overridden when 100 Ah set or as default.
My Si-6048 shows 222A. So the quick-start sets this parameter to 0.55C. 222A is 10.6 kW more or less depending on battery voltage. Almost perfect for my 12 kW PV array. Shouldn't cook the batteries, especially with temperature sensor.
Parameter 210.02 AC charge current is how much it will charge from the grid, not from PV. SI-5048 manual says default 20A, SI-6048 default 48A.
My SI-5048 shows 41.7A
My SI-6048 shows 55A
So all these things seem pretty well balanced for my present setup. Might need adjustment if I double PV array size.
As I expect to use the system, would rarely try to dump peak PV production into batteries. During the day, usage is expected to always be less than available PV production, so in "Island" or "Backup" mode, production would always be curtailed and batteries would always be full. Overnight the batteries would drain towards 70% DOD, but as sun came up they would start to charge gradually and likely be topped off well before PV production reaches peak. At 70% DOD, 14 kWh to recharge is about 1 hour of peak production. My panels are presently oriented toward 2:00 afternoon sun (optimized for time of use rates we previously had) so production will ramp up very slowly. When I double PV array size I plan to orient half toward 10:00 AM sun and half toward 2:00 PM.
I have a system with four SI-6048-12 & 405 Ah battery, and another system with one SI-5048 & 100 Ah battery.
Parameter 222.01 maximum battery charge current can be set from 10A to 1200A. SI-5048 manual says default 1200A and SI-6048 manual says default 61A. No system would ever hit 1200A from Sunny Islands because maximum four per cluster and peak 140A from each SI-6048. But, could have external charge controller and shunt. SI could observe high external current and avoid adding current which would exceed 1200A total.
Battery bank can be 100 Ah to 10,000 Ah. 1200A would be 0.12C for 10,000 Ah.
MY SI-5048 shows 55A, not 1200A. Probably an error in the manual, overridden when 100 Ah set or as default.
My Si-6048 shows 222A. So the quick-start sets this parameter to 0.55C. 222A is 10.6 kW more or less depending on battery voltage. Almost perfect for my 12 kW PV array. Shouldn't cook the batteries, especially with temperature sensor.
Parameter 210.02 AC charge current is how much it will charge from the grid, not from PV. SI-5048 manual says default 20A, SI-6048 default 48A.
My SI-5048 shows 41.7A
My SI-6048 shows 55A
So all these things seem pretty well balanced for my present setup. Might need adjustment if I double PV array size.
As I expect to use the system, would rarely try to dump peak PV production into batteries. During the day, usage is expected to always be less than available PV production, so in "Island" or "Backup" mode, production would always be curtailed and batteries would always be full. Overnight the batteries would drain towards 70% DOD, but as sun came up they would start to charge gradually and likely be topped off well before PV production reaches peak. At 70% DOD, 14 kWh to recharge is about 1 hour of peak production. My panels are presently oriented toward 2:00 afternoon sun (optimized for time of use rates we previously had) so production will ramp up very slowly. When I double PV array size I plan to orient half toward 10:00 AM sun and half toward 2:00 PM.
Solar Tech
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I had a problem with Load sharing with 4 Schneiders recently wound up having them make a custom firmware to resolve it
I always run the extra ground and neutral
Unless it says you can omit it in the manual like outback stuff
Use sunny Explorer and tighten the fspc window so that it only has 1 HZ window 59.5-60.5. This will make the sunny boy react faster to the need to limit power
Solar Tech
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all sunny islands have to have identical FW
