Do We Need a Control Group?

[Diysolar123]

Both the vaccinated and unvaccinated can get covid and die from it, the unvaccinated are over 10 times likely to die from it (2%)

you slipped a decimal point there...

the actual mortality rate for under 65yr olds is 0.09%; so your estimate of probably death is off by 20x!

You need to keep in mind that mortality from such things, much like the regular flu, is HIGHLY dependent on your age and other underlying conditions. If you are 65+ with medical complications it would be a very good idea to get this therapy.
Also keep in mind that this is NOT the same as vaccines in the past which, well, actually gave immunity.
These are gene therapy shots (which is why the manufacturers ALL had to be given liability immunity so no matter what the side effects are, up to and including death, they are immune from legal action).
This is a NEW class of treatment so anyone taking it, at this time, do not know the long term effects of this "vaccine".
It is very hard to get "non-political" information today as covid has turned into a religion with many people.

fyi, the odds of dying from a car crash in your lifetime are just over 1%!!
(the odds are much higher for the "under 20 and over 75" age groups which is why they get those nasty insurance rates hehe)

 

[Hedges]

you slipped a decimal point there...

the actual mortality rate for under 65yr olds is 0.09%; so your estimate of probably death is off by 20x!

<the unvaccinated are over 10 times likely to die from it (2%)>

Are you sure?

U.S. has 350 million people. 700,000 (0.2%) have died of Covid (so the official figures report).

If only 10% of the population has caught covid, then death rate is 2%.
If unvaccinated are 10x as likely to die from Covid as are unvaccinated, then if fully 100% of population has caught covid, the unvaccinated ~ 50% have death rate 2%
(or math somewhere around there)

Yes, death rate is dominated by older people. But these figures would represent total population.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

<the unvaccinated are over 10 times likely to die from it (2%)>

Are you sure?

U.S. has 350 million people. 700,000 (0.2%) have died of Covid (so the official figures report).

If only 10% of the population has caught covid, then death rate is 2%.
If unvaccinated are 10x as likely to die from Covid as are unvaccinated, then if fully 100% of population has caught covid, the unvaccinated ~ 50% have death rate 2%
(or math somewhere around there)

Yes, death rate is dominated by older people. But these figures would represent total population.

50 million cases 812k deaths, 1.6%... unless you are expecting people without covid to die of covid?

If you take 1.6% as the average between vaccinated and unvaccinated then the number would be closer to 1.7% of unvaccinated cases result in death where .17% of vaccinated cases result in death.

The reality is that we do not know exactly how many cases there have been so it will be lower, I wouldn't have rounded up to 2%

Let's all waste our time watching an RFK JR Video!

An Anti-Vaccine Film Targeted To Black Americans Spreads False Information

A recent movie produced by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s anti-vaccine group tries to capitalize on the COVID-19 pandemic, the racial justice movement and renewed interest in the history of medical racism.

www.npr.org

 

[Zil]

Good idea.
Starting to look like facebook with all these non-solar specific posts!

it's the chit chat page. you can leave.

 

[Cdkipp]

Also keep in mind that this is NOT the same as vaccines in the past which, well, actually gave immunity.
These are gene therapy shots (which is why the manufacturers ALL had to be given liability immunity so no matter what the side effects are, up to and including death, they are immune from legal action).
This is a NEW class of treatment so anyone taking it, at this time, do not know the long term effects of this "vaccine".

1. Your statement about not giving immunity is nonsensical. Of course, they give immunity. There is no 100% effective vaccine.
2. They are not gene therapy shots. Messenger RNA in these shots never enters the nucleus of the cell. Gene therapy is very different.
3. They also do not know the long-term effects of Covid. There are many viruses 'like chickenpox"-herpes that presents again later in life. mRNA leaves the body within 72 hours. In fact the big difficulty in developing these vaccines was to get them in the body before our body before liposomes dissolve it.

COVID-19 Vaccine: What You Need to Know

Now that COVID-19 vaccines are authorized, here are the facts you need now.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

Common COVID-19 Vaccine Myths Explained

Our vaccine expert helps set the record straight about some common questions, concerns and myths that have emerged about the COVID-19 vaccines.

health.clevelandclinic.org

Debunking myths about COVID-19

Let's set the record straight on some circulating myths about COVID-19 vaccines, prevention and treatment.

www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org

Why mRNA vaccines aren't gene therapies - Genomics Education Programme

We bust another Covid-19 myth – this time about how mRNA vaccines work – in our latest blog post

www.genomicseducation.hee.nhs.uk

Finally, in your statistics, you cannot compare the lifetime risk of death from an accident to the risk of death over a period of two years to a disease. Statistics don't work like that.

 

[Cdkipp]

you slipped a decimal point there...

the actual mortality rate for under 65yr olds is 0.09%; so your estimate of probably death is off by 20x!

You need to keep in mind that mortality from such things, much like the regular flu, is HIGHLY dependent on your age and other underlying conditions. If you are 65+ with medical complications it would be a very good idea to get this therapy.
Also keep in mind that this is NOT the same as vaccines in the past which, well, actually gave immunity.
These are gene therapy shots (which is why the manufacturers ALL had to be given liability immunity so no matter what the side effects are, up to and including death, they are immune from legal action).
This is a NEW class of treatment so anyone taking it, at this time, do not know the long term effects of this "vaccine".
It is very hard to get "non-political" information today as covid has turned into a religion with many people.

fyi, the odds of dying from a car crash in your lifetime are just over 1%!!
(the odds are much higher for the "under 20 and over 75" age groups which is why they get those nasty insurance rates hehe)

I should also point out that to say if you are under 65 your chances of dying are only.09% is also misleading as beginning at 40, the risk of death increases significantly. Also, vaccines are a population-based methodology of addressing a pandemic. You need to look beyond yourself in determining the appropriate course. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...s-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html

 

[Bob B]

Guys .... Please. I guess Murphyguy .... with a little help from others who might not like the subject of the video I posted .....managed to changed this thread into another argument over whether to get vaccinated or not .... that is not the subject of this thread ... and was not the subject of that video.

I realized there's a LOT of interest in that subject ... but please take it to the other thread.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

.....managed to changed this thread into another argument over whether to get vaccinated or not .... that is not the subject of this thread ... and was not the subject of that video.

Err, weren't you the one who linked a video of someone with an anti-vax agenda? I don't care if the video was about plum fairies, the guy is a known deviant pushing junk information and costing lives, including specifically targeting minorities with this disinformation.

In order to assess whether there are long term affects of getting Covid and not being vaccinated ..... or possible long term effects of the vaccine .... it is necessary to have a control group to compare against.
Think of it as if the unvaccinated are the placebo group. A proper study always needs a placebo group .... right?

Maybe we should be thanking those brave unvaccinated people instead of trying to coerce and vilify them .... we need them for a long term control group.

So, I don't see how these are unrelated, but I guess I will try.

If 5,000, or 10,000, or 50,000 whatever was needed for a control group study, were willing to risk going unvaccinated then I would agree.... unfortunately it isn't a control group because many are taking whatever medicine and recommendations they can find on Qanon, Facebook, Podcasts, and other random people. So not really very controlled.

The part a lot seem to have an issue wrapping their heads around is that you can't just "try something" without guidelines, documented procedures, timelines, etc and then claim "hey look, this drug works". You actually need a real methodology for the scientific METHOD to work. So no, that would be a shitty control group and I don't thank them for incubating the virus and fostering mutations.

 

[Bob B]

Err

So, I don't see how these are unrelated, but I guess I will try.

If 5,000, or 10,000, or 50,000 whatever was needed for a control group study, were willing to risk going unvaccinated then I would agree.... unfortunately it isn't a control group because many are taking whatever medicine and recommendations they can find on Qanon, Facebook, Podcasts, and other random people. So not really very controlled.

The part a lot seem to have an issue wrapping their heads around is that you can't just "try something" without guidelines, documented procedures, timelines, etc and then claim "hey look, this drug works". You actually need a real methodology for the scientific METHOD to work. So no, that would be a shitty control group and I don't thank them for incubating the virus and fostering mutations.

Just looks to me like you are trying to introduce more straw man arguments. I'm starting to think you guys are professional thread disrupters. Do you go around the whole internet trying to find and disrupt any Covid discussion?

The vax vs unvax argument started when Johnson decided to reply to murphyguy's post where he mis-characterized the video.

Did anyone watch the video? Yeah, it's long, but it's easy to speed it up.

 

[Cdkipp]

So you post a Robert Kennedy video and then you get upset people are talking about vax deniers. Got it.

And when you so it, you say: "This post will inevitably take this thread in a different direction".

Now you are saying we are off-topic?

 

[Shale MacGregor]

Just looks to me like you are trying to introduce more straw man arguments. I'm starting to think you guys are professional thread disrupters. Do you go around the whole internet trying to find and disrupt any Covid discussion?

You are so special. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt and answer your initial question, and instead you throw an accusation about straw men without specifying what you are referring to, and then whine about your thread being disrupted by people who actually challenge your ignorant statements, like 50 or 80 million idiots taking random drugs could somehow constitute a control group, and that we should thank them.

You really should stop trying to discuss things like this with people, it makes you look ignorant and reactionary. Of course I guess if you want to throw out half-formed arguments or ideas, and then ignore the real responses to them, and keep clicking refresh hoping someone will join in and agree with you by linking a blog that is your perrogative.

 

[Shale MacGregor]

I'm curious if anyone can find the last time out of the hundreds of posts Bob has made, where he actually responded to someone's argument with evidence or a counterargument that had any sort of validity?

 

[Bob B]

So you post a Robert Kennedy video and then you get upset people are talking about vax deniers. Got it.

And when you so it, you say: "This post will inevitably take this thread in a different direction".

Now you are saying we are off-topic?

The video I posted wasn't about anti-vax .....

I DO realize Kennedy does has a history of opposing certain vaccines via the Childrens Health Defense and litigating against companies whos vaccines have caused injuries .... but, that wasn't the subject of the video.

 

[Bob B]

I'm curious if anyone can find the last time out of the hundreds of posts Bob has made, where he actually responded to someone's argument with evidence or a counterargument that had any sort of validity?

You naturally wouldn't be aware of that because you don't actually look at anything other people post.

So ... you don't think throwing around Qanon references is a little over the top .... and an attempt to derail this thread?

 

[Shale MacGregor]

The beginning of bob's sentences in this thread

I think

With any luck

One thing we know for sure (followed by a statement we do not know for sure)

I think

So one of the haters has showed up

In my research (makes a claim, then doesnt link any research)

I won't even try (claiming he has plenty of evidence but it is a waste of time to try)

A few more posts (threatens to close thread, expect more of these and claiming he will ignore people)

One big concern (I didnt save link to article, if you dont believe me Im not going to try to find it for you)

We DO have that control group (no, smarty, we dont)

Now we know that covid is moving between species (makes claims that arent defensible and uses his "reasoning" )

I actually had a dream where cat gave us covid (sigh)

I think

I didnt recommend

I also think

As I said

I think


ok i am bored now

 

[Shale MacGregor]

You naturally wouldn't be aware of that because you don't actually look at anything other people post.

Another lie, and another deflection where you ignore the point I am making. Good job, at least you are consistent.

 

[Samsonite801]

I'm hesitant to start another Covid / vaccine related thread, but I didn't want to post in the other thread because it has been corrupted by nothing but hate filled rhetoric.
As soon as this thread gets that way, I will report it myself to a moderator and request that it be closed to further comment.

I just wanted to float an idea I saw in an article today. The idea is that we need a "control group."

In order to assess whether there are long term affects of getting Covid and not being vaccinated ..... or possible long term effects of the vaccine .... it is necessary to have a control group to compare against.
Think of it as if the unvaccinated are the placebo group. A proper study always needs a placebo group .... right?

Maybe we should be thanking those brave unvaccinated people instead of trying to coerce and vilify them .... we need them for a long term control group.

I don't know, but I'll volunteer to participate in a control group if they start one hehe... (I'm going to read the rest of the thread now)...

 

[Shale MacGregor]

The video I posted wasn't about anti-vax .....

I DO realize Kennedy does has a history of opposing certain vaccines via the Childrens Health Defense and litigating against companies whos vaccines have caused injuries .... but, that wasn't the subject of the video.

The part you don't get is that it doesn't matter. I won't waste my time listening to anything he has to say without a good reason because his faculties are either compromised or his morals are.

Are you really so uninformed that you don't realize how much time and effort Kennedy has put in against covid vaccines, to think you could post a video by him in a covid thread and not have it be relevant?

 

[Bob B]

The beginning of bob's sentences in this thread

I think

With any luck

One thing we know for sure (followed by a statement we do not know for sure)

I think

So one of the haters has showed up

In my research (makes a claim, then doesnt link any research)

I won't even try (claiming he has plenty of evidence but it is a waste of time to try)

A few more posts (threatens to close thread, expect more of these and claiming he will ignore people)

One big concern (I didnt save link to article, if you dont believe me Im not going to try to find it for you)

We DO have that control group (no, smarty, we dont)

Now we know that covid is moving between species (makes claims that arent defensible and uses his "reasoning" )

I actually had a dream where cat gave us covid (sigh)

I think

I didnt recommend

I also think

As I said

I think


ok i am bored now

I include the comment "I think" because I don't think some of you others guys do .....

 

[Shale MacGregor]

I include the comment "I think" because I don't think some of you others guys do .....

The funny part was where I was formulating this response while you were claiming I don't read peoples posts.

Yet again, another insult and no substantive response to anything I've brought up. Reminds me of a few people.