Eg4 Lifepower4 battery is ticking on start

[mmmnnn]

You need a scope for capacitor inrush; the clamp isn't going to read the transient.

what do you mean? not familiar with scope for capacitor inrush

 

[Koldsimer]

so let me clear that w you, by buying an LL model, ur problem is solved??

After two months of troubleshooting with SS that yielded no results, they finally took my suggestion to swap the batteries for the LL models.

It was kind of funny, i had been suggesting for at least a month that we at least try one of the ll models just as a way to eliminate variables and potentially isolate the problem to the lifepower model. When they finally gave in, Richard told me to go ahead and swap all four batteries. That surprised me and pretty much told me that they knew the LL models would work. And of course, they did.

Getting them to swap the batteries was like pulling teeth. I loaded up my batteries and drove up to their shop to get the LL models. Then they made a bad situation worse. They gave me one NIB battery, one that had been a shop test model and two that were used but "didn't have a lot of cycles". I was furious they would even consider giving me anything but NIB batteries after all i had been through with them. I told them shit was about to get ugly, Richard saw i was seriously angry and they gave me 4 new batteries, as they should have in the beginning.

 

[Shimmy]

what do you mean? not familiar with scope for capacitor inrush

Clamp meters display 6-cycle average inrush current typically. An oscilliscope can show quarter-cycle inrush and less, as well as the duration of the DC offset.

 

[mmmnnn]

After two months of troubleshooting with SS that yielded no results, they finally took my suggestion to swap the batteries for the LL models.

It was kind of funny, i had been suggesting for at least a month that we at least try one of the ll models just as a way to eliminate variables and potentially isolate the problem to the lifepower model. When they finally gave in, Richard told me to go ahead and swap all four batteries. That surprised me and pretty much told me that they knew the LL models would work. And of course, they did.

Getting them to swap the batteries was like pulling teeth. I loaded up my batteries and drove up to their shop to get the LL models. Then they made a bad situation worse. They gave me one NIB battery, one that had been a shop test model and two that were used but "didn't have a lot of cycles". I was furious they would even consider giving me anything but NIB batteries after all i had been through with them. I told them shit was about to get ugly, Richard saw i was seriously angry and they gave me 4 new batteries, as they should have in the beginning.

Shit, i'm in CA, that would be a long drive

 

[mmmnnn]

Clamp meters display 6-cycle average inrush current typically. An oscilliscope can show quarter-cycle inrush and less, as well as the duration of the DC offset.

i c, so like Will suggested, need to get like three readings to get to close enough accurate measurements can be a work around. never dealt with Oscilloscope before

 

[Solar Guppy]

This whole setup is in an RV. the startup load on the inverter is idle devices laptops, idle microwave, AC to 12v battery charger (already fully charged), Alexa

If you still don't believe that or want confirmation, I can make a video of it later today, let me know

The inverter must be off, no loads connected, otherwise when you precharge with a resistor, the inverter will as soon as the minimum operational voltage is meet with a precharge, start inverting and draw down the energy in the input capacitors. By the description of this issue, you need a method to not only precharge, but be able to support the idle load of the inverter, then turn on the battery. In theory a small battery charger could be used to "jump start" but that only works if you have alternate method of powering the charger.

Obviously, this isn't how battery systems have been in the past, and the battery would need to allow some window in seconds to have the cells connected, regardless of the amperage draw. This would point to the BMS design or implementation being the most likely root cause seen here.

Welcome to the world of Chinese designed equipment, the real issue is where these products are designed, they are not used. Meaning if the designers had home ESS systems they would see the issues themselves, they don't as unlike the US the majority of Chinese population lives in apartment / high rise building ( This is from contacts I have directly, not my opinion )

My design success is I designed and built the systems and they were in my home. monitored 24/7 , and US companies always had alpha / beta testing, not so in China. In China , if the engineer says it works, they ship it and move onto the next project.

 

[Koldsimer]

The inverter must be off, no loads connected, otherwise when you precharge with a resistor, the inverter will as soon as the minimum operational voltage is meet with a precharge, start inverting and draw down the energy in the input capacitors. By the description of this issue, you need a method to not only precharge, but be able to support the idle load of the inverter, then turn on the battery. In theory a small battery charger could be used to "jump start" but that only works if you have alternate method of powering the charger.

Obviously, this isn't how battery systems have been in the past, and the battery would need to allow some window in seconds to have the cells connected, regardless of the amperage draw. This would point to the BMS design or implementation being the most likely root cause seen here.

Welcome to the world of Chinese designed equipment, the real issue is where these products are designed, they are not used. Meaning if the designers had home ESS systems they would see the issues themselves, they don't as unlike the US the majority of Chinese population lives in apartment / high rise building ( This is from contacts I have directly, not my opinion )

My design success is I designed and built the systems and they were in my home. monitored 24/7 , and US companies always had alpha / beta testing, not so in China. In China , if the engineer says it works, they ship it and move onto the next project.

I think that's a big part of the problem. These rack style batteries are designed for telecommunications power and they have much different demands than an off grid home.

 

[Koldsimer]

Shit, i'm in CA, that would be a long drive

Well, you can always just send them back and get a refund. Of course, they are gonna want you to pay for shipping.

 

[mmmnnn]

The inverter must be off, no loads connected, otherwise when you precharge with a resistor, the inverter will as soon as the minimum operational voltage is meet with a precharge, start inverting and draw down the energy in the input capacitors. By the description of this issue, you need a method to not only precharge, but be able to support the idle load of the inverter, then turn on the battery. In theory a small battery charger could be used to "jump start" but that only works if you have alternate method of powering the charger.

Obviously, this isn't how battery systems have been in the past, and the battery would need to allow some window in seconds to have the cells connected, regardless of the amperage draw. This would point to the BMS design or implementation being the most likely root cause seen here.

Welcome to the world of Chinese designed equipment, the real issue is where these products are designed, they are not used. Meaning if the designers had home ESS systems they would see the issues themselves, they don't as unlike the US the majority of Chinese population lives in apartment / high rise building ( This is from contacts I have directly, not my opinion )

My design success is I designed and built the systems and they were in my home. monitored 24/7 , and US companies always had alpha / beta testing, not so in China. In China , if the engineer says it works, they ship it and move onto the next project.

This is not an acceptable work around. what i expreineceed with my setup as follows:
if the victron inverter is off, battery is off everything is wired up, turn on the battery, victron will start precharging the capacitor. After that turn on the battery, it ticks while precharging the capacitor but doesn't fail. now upon turning on the inverter, the battery fails even though the load on the inverter with very minimal load, the whole thing fails

According to our friend @Koldsimer post here https://diysolarforum.com/threads/eg4-lifepower4-battery-is-ticking-on-start.41681/post-562115, replacing the battery with signature solar LL model resolved the issue which clearly shows it's the lemon BMS of the basic model

will do further testing and report back tonight

 

[mmmnnn]

Well, you can always just send them back and get a refund. Of course, they are gonna want you to pay for shipping.

yeah, 3 way shipping that way (over $700) 2 batteries, i'm not paying for that

 

[chess-equality]

Welcome to the world of Chinese designed equipment, the real issue is where these products are designed, they are not used. Meaning if the designers had home ESS systems they would see the issues themselves, they don't as unlike the US the majority of Chinese population lives in apartment / high rise building ( This is from contacts I have directly, not my opinion )

My design success is I designed and built the systems and they were in my home. monitored 24/7 , and US companies always had alpha / beta testing, not so in China. In China , if the engineer says it works, they ship it and move onto the next project.

Well it is because there are no standards (official / de facto / whatchamacallit) unlike in other industries. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

For example, you can't mistakenly connect a conventional USB plug to a Type C, because it won't fit.

 

[Solar Guppy]

Well it is because there are no standards (official / de facto / whatchamacallit) unlike in other industries. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

BYD has labs tests with many brands of inverters, and there is an entire process for qualifications, so it is a choice the manufacture what they do for validation of a product.

 

[Shimmy]

i c, so like Will suggested, need to get like three readings to get to close enough accurate measurements can be a work around. never dealt with Oscilloscope before

Yes and no. A clamp meter will show you the magnitude of the problem. If the BMS has an "instantaneous" protection feature for under voltage/over voltage/over current then that quarter-cycle value becomes more important.

if the victron inverter is off, battery is off everything is wired up, turn on the battery, victron will start precharging the capacitor. After that turn on the battery, it ticks while precharging the capacitor but doesn't fail. now upon turning on the inverter, the battery fails even though the load on the inverter with very minimal load, the whole thing fails

The tick should be the pre-charge contactor kicking off (or on).

I would first record your startup procedure as you have been doing it.

If all you have is a clamp meter or multimeter, the first test is to look at battery bus voltage recorded at the battery terminals. Record a video of the meter screen as you start up; it isn't perfect since it is trying to not change the values often so you can actually read the value. (It's one of those times where old analog meters are great.) You should see the system start off at 0V, jump up to something under 40V when you close the breaker, and slowly approach the battery voltage. When you hear the click the voltage might jump up a little-- how much is important. When you hear subsequent clicks see if the voltage is varrying.

Then shut everything down, wait 60 seconds, and repeat the test measuring the voltage on positive from the battery terminal to the inverter terminal, repeating for negative (after shutting down and waiting 60 seconds again). This will hopefully give you an idea of current plus any potential high-resistance connections; you should see a voltage difference of under 5V initially, and ramping down to 0V.

After this baseline information, record current on one battery lead to the inverter as you do another start. I would be curious about current flow after the first click.

 

[mmmnnn]

Yes and no. A clamp meter will show you the magnitude of the problem. If the BMS has an "instantaneous" protection feature for under voltage/over voltage/over current then that quarter-cycle value becomes more important.

The tick should be the pre-charge contactor kicking off (or on).

I would first record your startup procedure as you have been doing it.

If all you have is a clamp meter or multimeter, the first test is to look at battery bus voltage recorded at the battery terminals. Record a video of the meter screen as you start up; it isn't perfect since it is trying to not change the values often so you can actually read the value. (It's one of those times where old analog meters are great.) You should see the system start off at 0V, jump up to something under 40V when you close the breaker, and slowly approach the battery voltage. When you hear the click the voltage might jump up a little-- how much is important. When you hear subsequent clicks see if the voltage is varrying.

Then shut everything down, wait 60 seconds, and repeat the test measuring the voltage on positive from the battery terminal to the inverter terminal, repeating for negative (after shutting down and waiting 60 seconds again). This will hopefully give you an idea of current plus any potential high-resistance connections; you should see a voltage difference of under 5V initially, and ramping down to 0V.

After this baseline information, record current on one battery lead to the inverter as you do another start. I would be curious about current flow after the first click.

I'm buyhing these two today for testing tonight

Commercial Electric Analogue Multimeter M1015B

Test AC/DC voltage and battery strength with the Commercial Electric Analogue Multi-meter. This multi-meter is compatible for testing 1.5-Volt and 9-Volt batteries.

www.homedepot.com

&

CM610A 600A T-RMS AC/DC Clamp Meter

Amazing deals on this 600 A T-Rms Ac/Dc Clamp Meter at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

 

[goldserve]

it’s super obvious that the precharge control and timing may not be sufficient in all use cases. When using multiple packs, one can try to turn on all the breakers at the same time to engage multiple precharge circuits. This will have to be the solution for me while some will want to replace the BMS all together. Paying for return freight is a non starter.

 

[Quattrohead]

Modern BMS? Can you please post your circuit design to create an automatic precharge system that is fast enough to measure inrush and act on it?

I don't need to, JBD are shipping millions of BMS that do this properly every day.
But I do know a small hand full of simple components and a relay or beefy MOSFET will make a simple timing circuit to do this no problem.
Look someone has already done the leg work for us DC inrush limiter scrool down around half way. R2, R3 and C2 set the timing, varying 1 of those values will change the timing. JBD use a 10 ohm, 10 watt resistor.

 

[shopman]

Some of these issues may be related to how individual inverters power up and whether or not they ramp up production from a standstill. As an example, I have an 8kw low frequency Growatt that powers up perfectly every single time off of just one Eg4 battery and I believe the reason for that is the inverter slowly ramps up output to 240v when first turned on.

 

[mmmnnn]

Some of these issues may be related to how individual inverters power up and whether or not they ramp up production from a standstill. As an example, I have an 8kw low frequency Growatt that powers up perfectly every single time off of just one Eg4 battery and I believe the reason for that is the inverter slowly ramps up output to 240v when first turned on.

bro, another member on this forum having the same issue with EG4 inverter, it's the battery not the inverter.

 

[Koldsimer]

Some of these issues may be related to how individual inverters power up and whether or not they ramp up production from a standstill. As an example, I have an 8kw low frequency Growatt that powers up perfectly every single time off of just one Eg4 battery and I believe the reason for that is the inverter slowly ramps up output to 240v when first turned on.

That's a good point but it didn't matter in my case. My Schneider has the ability to shut down all inverter/charging operations while in standby mode. It made no difference when attempting to start my inverter.

One theory that was proposed by @robby was that my schneider 6848 has a very large number of capacitors to charge. Because my inverter had been in use for well over a year, he proposed that the capacitors had aged to some degree and would have been a different value as compared to a new inverter. I'm sure he can explain this in much greater detail but it makes sense. This may be why my inverter in the field performed differently than their inverter on a test bench.

 

[Koldsimer]

bro, another member on this forum having the same issue with EG4 inverter, it's the battery not the inverter.

There were probably a dozen people who reported a similar problem in the thread i started back in december. It's definitely something in the battery.