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Calculation of parallel string battery currents

Are all these batteries LiFePo4 chemistry? What is the internal resistance of the 100 Ah batteries? What is the internal resistance of the cells making up the DIY 280 Ah batteries; these are made up of 16 cells I assume.

The ideal situation would be to have the 280 Ah batteries deliver 2.8 times as much current as the 100 Ah batteries. This way, the SOC of all the batteries would track together all the way down to full discharge, and at any intermediate state. Do you have a good clamp-on ammeter so you can check discharge currents of the individual batteries?

After a partial discharge, with the pack being neither charged nor discharged, there will undoubtedly be some circulating currents among the batteries.
 
Thanks Solarod,
All are LiFePO4
I am not sure of the IR of the factory racks, but I could find out.
The 280Ah cells are EVE280K cells, I believe they were labelled IR=0.019milli-Ohms (all are the same).
All five batteries are set up 16S -1P
I see what you are getting at with the resistance, maybe we can come up with a way to do this with added resisters/wire sizes.
I have this clamp-on ammeter: UNI-T UT-210D (as recommended on Andy's off-grid-garage!) it can measure resistance.
I can take some measurements when the pack is approx 50% discharged, and check for circulating currents as you have suggested.

To make discussions easier, and for anyone following along, I made a quick diagram of the batteries, and how they connect to the bus bars and the Inverters. You will see from the diagram there is more going on than my original description indicated, however all the disconnects and T-Class fuses for each battery are identical, maybe means near the same resistance.
 

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  • Typical Rack Battery Installation.pdf
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If you are mixing and matching battery packs, why are you trying to find perfection on resistance when you are already starting off with significant imperfection with everything else? They will all be full at the same voltage and dead at the same voltage...if they are different by a few percent in between, what does it actually matter?

Has no one paid any attention to Will Prowse's system that is an absolute clusterfuck of batteries, and they've been working fine for years????
 
OffGridForGood:

What is the maximum current you expect your battery bank to supply?

What is the length of the individual 1AWG cables?

It would be good to apply a fairly large load for 15 minutes, measure the individual battery currents and post those values here. Then disconnect the load and don't begin charging. Immediately after disconnecting the load, measure the individual battery currents and post the values here.

This will give us a picture of the amount of unbalance.
 
I have studied your great post from beginning to end @Marinepower (sorry, I mean @Solarod )

This thread? https://diysolarforum.com/threads/calculation-of-parallel-string-battery-currents.37937/

Edit: Just realized this is the thread.
Recommendations?
Run the busbar connection from the total bank between battery 2 and battery 3 on positive (or negative), on the opposing side between battery 3 and battery 4.

I have the 4 batteries in my bank, main busbar connection is between battery 1 280Ah and battery 2 280Ah on positive side and between battery 3 280Ah and battery 4 304Ah on the negative side. I had read that thread as I was drilling holes for connections on the busbars and decided to use the 4 battery location.

These remain in balance. The key is as long as resistance is not large on the connections, the batteries should remain in balance.
 
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If you are mixing and matching battery packs, why are you trying to find perfection on resistance when you are already starting off with significant imperfection with everything else? They will all be full at the same voltage and dead at the same voltage...if they are different by a few percent in between, what does it actually matter?

Has no one paid any attention to Will Prowse's system that is an absolute clusterfuck of batteries, and they've been working fine for years????
1. To learn something new, and have better understanding of how these system actually work.
2. For fun.
 
OffGridForGood:

What is the maximum current you expect your battery bank to supply?

What is the length of the individual 1AWG cables?

It would be good to apply a fairly large load for 15 minutes, measure the individual battery currents and post those values here. Then disconnect the load and don't begin charging. Immediately after disconnecting the load, measure the individual battery currents and post the values here.

This will give us a picture of the amount of unbalance.
Max peak current expected in the battery system (total) 100A - generally for short periods starting inductive loads like motors. (well pump, air compressor,etc) These peak loads last less than a few minutes. Base loads run 1-4kW during the day, 0.5-2.0kW during night.

I can run the testing on Friday (when the shop is closed for Easter) I will collect the data you suggest and post for discussion, along with the Factory Rack cell IR values.

Edit: I forgot to answer your question about the 1AWG battery wires: Each battery Pos to disconnect cable is 9" length, (all five the same) each disconnect to Fuse cable is 9" length, each fuse is directly bolted one end onto the bus bar. Total length of each Pos 1AWG wire from battery to bus is 18". The Neg cable 1AWG are 12" length, battery to neg bus bar (no fuse or disconnect on the neg side).
 
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Max peak current expected in the battery system (total) 100A - generally for short periods starting inductive loads like motors. (well pump, air compressor,etc) These peak loads last less than a few minutes. Base loads run 1-4kW during the day, 0.5-2.0kW during night.

I can run the testing on Friday (when the shop is closed for Easter) I will collect the data you suggest and post for discussion, along with the Factory Rack cell IR values.

Edit: I forgot to answer your question about the 1AWG battery wires: Each battery Pos to disconnect cable is 9" length, (all five the same) each disconnect to Fuse cable is 9" length, each fuse is directly bolted one end onto the bus bar. Total length of each Pos 1AWG wire from battery to bus is 18". The Neg cable 1AWG are 12" length, battery to neg bus bar (no fuse or disconnect on the neg side).
With today being a holiday I had the shop to myself (quiet) and was able to measure a few things as suggested by @Solarod
Here is the data I collected, and conditions the system was under during the testing:
First IR for the factory rack batteries: These vary a bit but generally measure 0.38milliohms (one as high as 0.42 and one as low as 0.29)
The cell voltage balance spread was from highest to lowest 19millivolts difference.
Putting a load of 92Amps on the batteries (all five) via the inverter running the house, the shop and some electric heaters to make the load close to 100A on the DC side: (I used some heaters rather than motors to bring the load up since the motor-loads would cycle on/off, while the heaters just run a steady load while I could measure the amperages.)
First (top) 100Ah battery 15.3A
Second 100Ah battery 17.9A
Third (middle) 280Ah battery 19.2A
EDIT: Forgot to say the SOC was 61% at the time of the testing.

Forth 280Ah battery 20.7A
Fifth (lowest) battery 19.6A
 
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If you haven't changed your wiring configuration from when you posted the diagram, it doesn't surprise me one bit to see the top battery get the least current.
 
If you haven't changed your wiring configuration from when you posted the diagram, it doesn't surprise me one bit to see the top battery get the least current.
I was tempted to change the connections this morning while I was poking around with the batteries, then thought it best to leave everything as I showed in the diagram, so it is all consistant for discussions, less confusion. At least until Solarod /others chime in with some suggestions. Then after changes I can post what currents I measure with the same loading.
 
I've seen comments on the forum suggesting that, given a string with load connected in the diagonal manner, there might be a benefit to making the load connections more toward the middle of the string rather than at the very corners. For the 4 battery parallel string that would be done like this:

batt2-png.89996


Setting the initial parameters back to: battery IR of 5 milliohms, link resistance of 1 milliohm, load current of 100 amps, the calculation gives this result for the theoretical battery currents in amps:

Example 8
20.8333
29.1667
29.1667
20.8333

Compare this to Example 4. The values of the currents are exactly the same, but distributed among the batteries in kind of an anti-symmetric way. When I saw this, I thought "I wonder if there is a way to make a connection halfway between the two methods?". Consider the link cable between the negative terminals of battery 1 and battery 2. At a point halfway between the ends of the cable strip away an inch of insulation and expose the copper conductor. Connect the negative load cable at that point. I know this is impractical but bear with me. Now in a similar manner expose the conductor at a point halfway between the ends of the link cable connecting the positive terminals of battery 3 and battery 4; connect the positive load cable at that point. It should be as illustrated in this image:

batt3-png.89997


Now with 4 identical batteries having indentical IR of 5 milliohms, link cable resistance of 1 milliohm and load current of 100 amps the calculation shows that the battery currents in amps are:

Example 9
25.0
25.0
25.0
25.0

We have (theoretically) perfect balance! Is this a previously unknown connection giving perfect balance, like the "Halfway" connection shown in the Victron document? Does anyone know if this been published anywhere?

A very practical way of making this connection is possible when busbars are being used. Just drill a couple of holes at points on the busbars at the pertinent points halfway between the appropriate battery terminals and make the load connection there. This image shows what I mean:

busbar-png.89998


The usual diagonal connection would be as shown with the red and black wires. The new connection would be as shown with the yellow and blue wires.

Even more useful are the following properties. For this new connection, it doesn't matter what the battery IR is!! The calculation of the battery currents remains (theoretically) perfectly balanced for any value of IR as long as all 4 batteries have the same IR. This is very handy because as the batteries are discharged, their IR will change but this change will not upset the (theoretical) perfect balance. Also, the resistance of the links has no effect on the (theoretically) perfect balance! This means that the busbar need not be very thick copper; it can be thinner and higher resistance than would normally be needed for good balance. The only restriction is that its resistance shouldn't be so high that it gets too hot.

A mathematician would say that the (theoretically) perfect balance is invariant with respect to battery IR and link resistance. These properties are crucially dependent on the batteries having identical IR.

I expect that some reading about this may be skeptical. I was skeptical myself at first, but I've checked it several times. I invite verification by members of the community. Perhaps someone will do a simulation with Spice. The ultimate proof would be a hardware proof. If someone already has a string of 4 identical batteries in parallel with busbars, they could drill the two new holes and connect the load there, subsequently checking the balance.
The one thing that I haven't accounted for in this WONDERFUL writeup is the effect of the Battery's BMS.
It controls both the Charge and Discharge of each battery independently.
I wonder how they would affect the calculation.
 
The one thing that I haven't accounted for in this WONDERFUL writeup is the effect of the Battery's BMS.
It controls both the Charge and Discharge of each battery independently.
I wonder how they would affect the calculation.

As long as the batteries are balanced and charge at the same rate, the BMS doesn't come into play. This assumes that your charger is set to have a lower voltage than the BMS.
 
I was tempted to change the connections this morning while I was poking around with the batteries, then thought it best to leave everything as I showed in the diagram, so it is all consistant for discussions, less confusion. At least until Solarod /others chime in with some suggestions. Then after changes I can post what currents I measure with the same loading.

The suggested connections that were posted by Zwy are what I would go with. That's about as balanced as you're going to get. Running same length cables from all five batteries to a bus bar would be the only thing better that I can think of.
 
The suggested connections that were posted by Zwy are what I would go with. That's about as balanced as you're going to get. Running same length cables from all five batteries to a bus bar would be the only thing better that I can think of.
All battery to bus cables are currently identical ga and lengths
(see posting 110)
 
Same length and ga may not be the best solution - per solarod, it may be better if the two 100Ah batteries have 2.8x the resistance that the 280Ah batteries have to the bus.
 
Same length and ga may not be the best solution - per solarod, it may be better if the two 100Ah batteries have 2.8x the resistance that the 280Ah batteries have to the bus.

Maybe if the two different Ah sets of batteries were in independent banks?

It's not helpful to say this, but I wouldn't be putting batteries with such disparate Ah capacities together. But the batteries will absorb as many amps as they can for their rating.
 
Interesting,
Reducing the "length" of the bus really with your pentagon plate.
In my set up I used pretty heavy 110 copper bus material (8mmx50mm) and expected that the "resistance" in that size bus would be less than the resistance of things like the connections, fuses, disconnects etc.
The whole point of the long bus bar is to shorten the cables which are (at 1 AWG) far higher resistance than the bus.
To use a plate connector as you show, would mean the cables from the top and bottom batteries would need to be far longer than my short cables. Even if all the same length, they will introduce higher resistance. yes?
For what it is worth, my five batteries under normal daily loads (for about a month now) remain very close to the same voltage in use, since much of the time the loads are only a few kW steady and lower all night. I have checked weekly and all the cells in each battery remain very close to balance as well. I normally hit 100% charge 4-5 days per week this time of year.
 
While voltage is a relevant number, I'm more interested in the state of charge. LiFePO4 has a very flat voltage curve. Only at the knees of the curve will you see the voltage jump or fall. Two identical batteries can be at the same voltage but very different states of charge.

Stepping back for a minute, what's the downside of your current configuration? A couple of the batteries end up working harder than the other batteries and will have a shorter lifespan. Eventually, with enough charge time, they'll all achieve 100% state of charge, which is good. If one BMS decides it's reached 100% state of charge, it cuts off charging, which means there's more current for the other four batteries. If your charge profile is more conservative than the upper limits of the BMS you'll be OK.

Get the configuration as balanced as you can and call it good. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
 
It's not helpful to say this, but I wouldn't be putting batteries with such disparate Ah capacities together.
It has crossed my mind to put the two 100A racks into a parallel set up on a short bus and then feed that bus to the main. Effectively making them into a "200Ah" pair. closer to the 280Ah other batteries.
 
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