Victron is Over-priced Eurotrash. Why would anybody buy Victron over an AiO?

[ksmithaz1]

Was that with balanced 120V current draw, or if not, how much current imbalance?

I missed this question. It was out-of-whack completely disconnected from any draw, and pretty much exactly the same connected to the panel once I threw the transfer switch. 8v differential 116/124, possible maybe -1v on either leg connected to various loads.

 

[Hedges]

8V difference on two "120V" windings of auto-transformer. When driven with 240V?
I would expect voltage to be balanced with no load.

Was center tap grounded? If so, any current in that?

 

[ksmithaz1]

8V difference on two "120V" windings of auto-transformer. When driven with 240V?
I would expect voltage to be balanced with no load.

Was center tap grounded? If so, any current in that?

The unit was grounded. "Neutral" was tested grounded and not grounded, same results, No measurable fault currents to ground from the neutral. I really would have liked an engineering response from Victron on this, but I was nearing the "point of no return", so everything got sent back. Since you brought it up, I assumed I had a bad winding and had the unit replaced, same result, so it is apparently engineered that way.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Victron Auto Transformer:



The black leg was a solid 116, The red leg was on the edge varied between 123 and 124 depending on the load. Input was a pretty solid 240. So probably more like 7.5v variance It seemed to be working fine, load variances between the legs were minimal but even when they were not, I didn't seem to affect the readings. Had the 5x5K inverters not completely fallen over (as in all 5 turned completely off requiring a full disconnect/reset to come back on). I would have grudgingly run with it.



With 2AWG, the breaker kept popping off the DIN rail until I got happy with the Kleins. Ditto for the ground, probably should have run #6. I fudged in 1" conduit, 2AWG really needs 1-1/4 as a minimum. The openings didn't like the 1" very much, they provided a cable gland, that was even tighter for 3x2AWG. Yes the Victron engineering here can only be described as stunning!

Contrast this running 2/0 and 2AWG to the inside of the EG4 cabinet:



I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. So with Victron you will get more mature software, though it will be a b*tch to wire, and less capable, but at least you will get to pay more for it.

I will say Victron seems to be very popular in the mobile arena, like boats and RV's. In this particular application smaller size and robust software, with people singing the praises of their reliability, might be a huge factor, for components that need to be strategically scattered in annoying and difficult to service locations. Just not so sure it matters for ground based / home use in a utility area.

I might note: I haven't seen a Victron representative respond to any of this on this forum either.

I have seen Sol-Ark, Lux, EG4, . . . Which is more support than I ever got from Victron. No matter, do what you think best, but it is HIGHLY UNKLIKELY I would ever consider a Victron product after my experience.

 

[Aridom82]

Victron Auto Transformer:

Where is the part that costs all the extra money?

 

[ksmithaz1]

I also tried it at 230v and 220v. The spread was the same, maybe .5v less.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Where is the part that costs all the extra money?

Not sure what your question is. The box is around US$700. A big chunk of the cost is doing to be in the torroidal winding. It's one big 240v (30A) coil with a center tap that is apparently not actually in the center, a relay with a few sensors and some control logic. It can be used in a similar but limited fashion to a normal dry transformer, since it only has one winding. For my use case, it simply passed the 240v straight thru to the load creating a neutral. It can be wired in a handful of other confgurations/scenario's.

A typical inexpensive dry 480/240 100A (24KW) single phase transformer will set you back $2K. It's a series of primary windings, multiply tapped, used to support various input voltages, (480, 240, 208, blah, blah) by tying the various taps together, with whatever input you have, to create 240v on the secondary center tapped winding. It has NO electronic components or relays, just wire and some bus bars. It will be extremely heavy, you will need equipment to move it.

 

[Aridom82]

Not sure what your question is. The box is around US$700. A big chunk of the cost is doing to be in the torroidal winding. It's one big 240v (30A) coil with a center tap that is apparently not actually in the center, a relay with a few sensors and some control logic. It can be used in a similar but limited fashion to a normal dry transformer, since it only has one winding. For my use case, it simply passed the 240v straight thru to the load creating a neutral. It can be wired in a handful of other confgurations/scenario's.

A typical inexpensive dry 480/240 100A (24KW) single phase transformer will set you back $2K. It's a series of primary windings, multiply tapped, used to support various input voltages, (480, 240, 208, blah, blah) by tying the various taps together, with whatever input you have, to create 240v on the secondary center tapped winding. It has NO electronic components or relays, just wire and some bus bars. It will be extremely heavy, you will need equipment to move it.

Well, following the name of the thread i expected this victron unit to be very expensive without any clear justification...

 

[ksmithaz1]

Well, following the name of the thread i expected this victron unit to be very expensive without any clear justification...

Component for component I don't really see the Victron products as significantly more expensive. The expense I see over an AIO is the number of components required, including engineering costs, wiring costs, etc, to accomplish the same goal. I put together a 24KW(+) output capable system for under $13K + panels & batteries. It consists of 2 boxes, 3 200A AC bus bar's for (L1,L2,N) with 6x2AWG wire runs from the inverters, and one to the panel. 4x2/0 wire runs to 800A bus bars for the 30KWH of batteries. Some inline breakers and fuses. 6 Strings of panels independently feeding from a breaker/surge box to each of the three MPPT's with lightweight 12AWG/thhn wire at ~ a 400VOC for 4 of the strings, and 320VOC for the surplus strings. A total of ~18KW of (theoretical) input spread across the two.

Let's start building that with Victron components. I think their MPPT's are like 100v, 60A? So my panels are 48+VOC/10.5A max. I'm in phoenix, so I can probably squeak under the VOC and run a 2x4 arrangment, 96voc, 10.5/string, 42a in parallel, so I better run lots and lots of #10 down to a combiner box (32 panels, paired = 16, 32 #10 wires). So 16 strings on the roof, bump the conduit from 1/2 and 3/4 to 1 inch and 1-1/2, 4x4x2.5 boxes may need to be 6x6x4. Now I need a more sophisticated combiner box, actually probably going to want a box per string, or maybe 1for 2, I'll need to fuse each pair bus, spike, 60a breaker back to the MPPT So I'll need 6 MPPT's, gonna set you back $600 a pop, that's $3600 plus a few zillion dollars of wire and conduit, plus say three DIY combiner boxes probably $200 a pop, we are at $6-8K and I've managed to get the Solar Leg done, and chewed up a ton of extra real estate on my walls for boxes and wire.

If all you want is a small 12v project for a camper or a boat something it would be a much different conversation.

 

[Hedges]

Mobile, fine strand wire may be used. That eases bending.

Think maybe the transformer used equal length of wire for L1 and L2, but one wound on top of the other resulting in different number of turns?
If it was "bifilar wound" (two wires side by side), but those connected in series not parallel, should be more symmetric.

I move my power transformers with engine hoist and 4-wheel dolly. OK for paved areas. I do plan to drag one across the yard, might need help pushing up a hill.

 

[Tomthumb62]

If all you want is a small 12v project for a camper or a boat something it would be a much different conversation.

Like many threads on this forum, context is king.

Our solar at this point is limited to a leisure camping trailer. Slowly replacing things with Victron because it works better. Sometimes the cost is negligible.

I can replace my $130 Renogy 30A charge controller with a $214 Victron 30A one. But I’m waiting for a certain seller to have a used or open box item of this for $155 (full warranty). But even at full retail price, it’s not that bad. But if I were trying to build a massive home system it would be thousands of dollars of difference instead of $84 difference.

 

[Samsonite801]

I think their MPPT's are like 100v, 60A?

My neighbor just purchased two Victron MPPT charge controllers which support 450v PV input... I own two Victron 250|100 charge controllers which support 250v PV input.

Were you speaking of some particular use of a 100v Victron you saw before or something? Victron makes lots of different charge controllers, supporting all sorts of PV input voltages, depending on what your application requires...

 

[sunshine_eggo]

My neighbor just purchased two Victron MPPT charge controllers which support 450v PV input... I own two Victron 250|100 charge controllers which support 250v PV input.

Were you speaking of some particular use of a 100v Victron you saw before or something? Victron makes lots of different charge controllers, supporting all sorts of PV input voltages, depending on what your application requires...

Yep. They have product lines for:

75Voc
100Voc
150Voc
250Voc
450Voc

The 100/50 is one of their most popular and best value units, so maybe that's what @ksmithaz1 was getting at.

 

[Rednecktek]

I'll buy Victron equipment AFTER the end of the world happens AND hell freezes over AND I spend money on an Apple computer again.

I just can't bring myself to spend so much more for the color blue when you have much more capable units made by other manufacturers that work just fine and don't nickel & dime you for every little plastic cover and app and fuse holder in a fairly locked down eco-system.

But then again I have bills to pay and cats to feed which I'm sure is a HUGE part of it.

(Ok, time to run from the pitchforks and torches! )

 

[n2aws]

Who makes a reliable low frequency all in one?
I haven’t found one. So for low frequency one is essentially forced to go component system

There are continuous comparisons to solark and luxpower but they aren’t close to similar in design either.

I'm ok with that. I prefer the modular route over the all in ones personally.

What you gain in simplicity with an all in one, you lose in supportability. By that I mean, if a component in my system were to fail or need maintenace of some kind, the rest of the system keeps doing whatever it was designed and configured to do. If something needs replaced, everything else continues to work. with an AIO, that isn't always the case.

 

[n2aws]

Also panels are just getting bigger and bigger and better and better. I can't find a component MPPT that will handle 500+VOC and I'll be darned if I'm going to run #4 or #6 up to my panels to handle 50 odd amps and up. For smaller systems with only a few panels it's less relevant but if you start

How long ago did you look?

Schneider has 2 models that are 600v max, been selling them for like 20 years (I have a couple, and they are rock solid)
victron has at least 1 400v model
midnight solar has a hawks bay charge controller that is 600v

Not going to lie, it's kinda nice to bring a large "string inverter" sized array into a charge controller over 10AWG pv wire. Especially in my case where one of my arrays is on a barn almost 300' from the house.

 

[TimE]

For installation on a boat, there really isn't a better bit of kit than Victron. This is what most boats in the Caribbean have. We use three MPPTs, four battery to battery chargers, two battery balancers, a couple of smart shunts. We don't use a Victron inverter as in my opinion, they are over speced and over priced for what we need. If we want 220v, we just turn on our 3kw low frequency inverter to boil the kettle, cook on the induction hob, make water on the desal, or run the immersion heater. When we have finished, we turn the inverter off. It's a relatively simple system compared to land based. Different needs but Victron is the standard. Nothing else compares for marine use. The MPPTs are particularly good

 

[Tomthumb62]

I'll buy Victron equipment AFTER the end of the world happens AND hell freezes over AND I spend money on an Apple computer again.

I just can't bring myself to spend so much more for the color blue when you have much more capable units made by other manufacturers that work just fine and don't nickel & dime you for every little plastic cover and app and fuse holder in a fairly locked down eco-system.

But then again I have bills to pay and cats to feed which I'm sure is a HUGE part of it.

(Ok, time to run from the pitchforks and torches! )

I can’t bring myself to spend $2500 on an Apple laptop when I can get the same or better (sans the OS) for half price or less. I paid $715 for my Thinkpad, put $200 of upgrades (better screen and bigger ssd) and it’s still running great nearly 10 years later.

But I love my iphone. Can’t stand Android and all the fussing required to extract the Google snooping. iOS is just superior in user interface and feel and reliability and security IMO. I just use my phone, I’m not wasting time fiddling with it.

 

[1201]

I can’t bring myself to spend $2500 on an Apple laptop when I can get the same or better (sans the OS) for half price or less. I paid $715 for my Thinkpad, put $200 of upgrades (better screen and bigger ssd) and it’s still running great nearly 10 years later.

But I love my iphone. Can’t stand Android and all the fussing required to extract the Google snooping. iOS is just superior in user interface and feel and reliability and security IMO. I just use my phone, I’m not wasting time fiddling with it.

Android is Linux and Linux rocks. So much power, and people use it as a phone

 

[ChrisG]

Android is Linux and Linux rocks. So much power, and people use it as a phone

iPhone is Unix. #justsayin.