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My First Grid Down Simulation - EG4 18Kpv - No Way to Maximize Use of AC-Coupled Solar Power?

skoshorek

New Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
Messages
35
Location
Florida
My System: EG4 18Kpv - Six EG4 LifePower4 Batteries - AC-coupled 8kW Solar Array and Grid-tied Inverter - Utility Interconnection Agrreement to Export

I am four days into my initial grid-down simulation, and I'm mostly pleased with the system performance. This is probably the time of year when my loads are the least, and I've had sunshine each of the four days. The AC-coupled system shuts off around 6 PM, and it comes back on around 8 AM. Nightly drain on the batteries is from 99% to 70%, and the batteries are replenished each day to 99% . At this time of year it looks like I can run indefinitely when there is some sunshine during the day. My nightly usage is around 9 KWh, so I can probably last through two days of no sunshine. Summertime is going to be different.

The first morning, after shutting off the utility the night before, the AC-coupled system did not start on its own, so I had to try tweaking some settings. I think this was due to my successful trial the day before of using seven 200W portable solar panels to supplement the AC-coupled solar, and I still had the MPPT Setting on PV3 Only. I'm not sure if that was it, but I got it working after switching to Off Grid. I tried lots of things (while driving the car, definitely not safe or smart), and I'm not sure which of those did the trick since there seems to be some delay in the response of the EG4 18Kpv to new settings in the remote app. I switched back to No PV for the MPPT Setting that evening, and turned off the Off Grid setting, and the AC-coupled power came on by itself the next morning.

I am not happy with the EG4 18Kpv's habit of turning off the AC-coupled solar and switching to battery power (with grid down) as soon as the batteries are fully charged by the solar panels (set at 57 V). It'll do this even when there is more than ample solar power to cover all the loads. There is no reason to use anything other than solar power if there's enough of it available. I hope EG4 or LuxPower gives us the option of only using batteries when there is no other power available. There is no way to make this happen when using the SOC% or Vdc settings (as far as I can tell). I think they could use a "logic tree" approach, rather than SOC% or Vdc settings, to accomplish this.

Example 1: If the grid is up, and there is adequate solar power available, use solar power for loads. If there is inadequate solar power, use grid power to supplement the solar power for loads. There should never be a need to use battery power if the grid is up. 200A pass-through should take care of anything. I realize that some folks will use battery power to reduce expensive grid power consumption, but my preference is to maximize how long my batteries can supply my home when the grid is down. electricity is fairly cheap here in Florida.

Example 2: If the grid is down, and there is adequate solar power available, use solar power for loads. If there is inadequate solar power, use battery power to supplement the solar power for loads. If the solar power increases above the load requirements, start charging the batteries with the excess solar power. When batteries won't take any more charging, shut them down and continue using only solar power for loads.

I don't care what settings they need to use to accomplish this. I don't need to know. The settings they've made available to us do NOT accomplish this. Based on some feedback I've received, I think that EG4 is working to update their software to allow some of this capability while the grid is up. Now that I've done my first grid down simulation, I can say that I'd also like them to make changes to cover when the grid is down.
 
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I am not happy with the EG4 18Kpv's habit of turning off the AC-coupled solar and switching to battery power (with grid down) as soon as the batteries are fully charged by the solar panels (set at 57 V).

Not sure about the rest, but you are describing STANDARD AC coupling behavior that is necessary due to how grid tie inverters (GTI) work.

GTI do not regulate themselves. They expect an infinite grid in which to dump the maximum power the array will deliver - period.

When the 18kPV is providing the grid, it MUST absorb the maximum output of the GTI array. No exceptions, so the moment the batteries are full, there's nowhere for the power to go. The only choice it has is to frequency shift away from 60Hz to force the GTI to disconnect and switch to battery.

For comparison, Victron has the ability to interface with and throttle certain models of Fronius GTI. This is because the Victron ecosystem is in communication with the Fronius, and the Fronius has built-in throttling ability, which is not a standard feature. Additionally, due to the imprecise measure of this control, the grid is needed to buffer this function as the GTI is not sensitive enough to change output in response to loads. It still decouples from the GTI when grid is down. This feature exists to prevent significant grid backfeed when not desired. So for many thousands of dollars more, you still can't get your desired behavior.

So for you to get the functionality you want:
1) your GTI must be able to throttle itself.
2) the 18kPV must be able to communicate with and control the GTI.
3) the 18kPV will have to offer a function that no other AC coupling-capable inverter has.

Suggest:
1) Don't hold your breath.
2) Be thankful for the concept of AC coupling that gives you any GTI function whatsoever in a grid-down situation.
 
I am not happy with the EG4 18Kpv's habit of turning off the AC-coupled solar and switching to battery power (with grid down) as soon as the batteries are fully charged by the solar panels (set at 57 V). It'll do this even when there is more than ample solar power to cover all the loads. There is no reason to use anything other than solar power if there's enough of it available. I hope EG4 or LuxPower gives us the option of only using batteries when there is no other power available. There is no way to make this happen when using the SOC% or Vdc settings (as far as I can tell). I think they could use a "logic tree" approach, rather than SOC% or Vdc settings, to accomplish this.


This may have something to do with either the kpv settings or grid tie inverter settings. Which grid tie inverter do you use? The kpv should be able to smoothly throttle the output of the grid tie inverter to only cover loads when the battery is full. It should do this by slowly raising the frequency. I believe @BKY2003 has this function working. If the grid tie inverter does not derate it's output on command of the kpv then the kpv will raise the system frequency high enough to simply shut down the grid tie inverter.

Do you have a way to track the system frequency in hz?
 
Not sure about the rest, but you are describing STANDARD AC coupling behavior that is necessary due to how grid tie inverters (GTI) work.

GTI do not regulate themselves. They expect an infinite grid in which to dump the maximum power the array will deliver - period.

When the 18kPV is providing the grid, it MUST absorb the maximum output of the GTI array. No exceptions, so the moment the batteries are full, there's nowhere for the power to go. The only choice it has is to frequency shift away from 60Hz to force the GTI to disconnect and switch to battery.

For comparison, Victron has the ability to interface with and throttle certain models of Fronius GTI. This is because the Victron ecosystem is in communication with the Fronius, and the Fronius has built-in throttling ability, which is not a standard feature. Additionally, due to the imprecise measure of this control, the grid is needed to buffer this function as the GTI is not sensitive enough to change output in response to loads. It still decouples from the GTI when grid is down. This feature exists to prevent significant grid backfeed when not desired. So for many thousands of dollars more, you still can't get your desired behavior.

So for you to get the functionality you want:
1) your GTI must be able to throttle itself.
2) the 18kPV must be able to communicate with and control the GTI.
3) the 18kPV will have to offer a function that no other AC coupling-capable inverter has.

Suggest:
1) Don't hold your breath.
2) Be thankful for the concept of AC coupling that gives you any GTI function whatsoever in a grid-down situation.
An ac coupled inverter can absolutely throttle the grid tie inverter to only supply enough to power the loads when the batteries are full.
 
My System: EG4 18Kpv - Six EG4 LifePower4 Batteries - AC-coupled 8kW Solar Array and Grid-tied Inverter - Utility Interconnection Agrreement to Export

I am four days into my initial grid-down simulation, and I'm mostly pleased with the system performance. This is probably the time of year when my loads are the least, and I've had sunshine each of the four days. The AC-coupled system shuts off around 6 PM, and it comes back on around 8 AM. Nightly drain on the batteries is from 99% to 70%, and the batteries are replenished each day to 99% . At this time of year it looks like I can run indefinitely when there is some sunshine during the day. My nightly usage is around 9 KWh, so I can probably last through two days of no sunshine. Summertime is going to be different.

The first morning, after shutting off the utility the night before, the AC-coupled system did not start on its own, so I had to try tweaking some settings. I think this was due to my successful trial the day before of using seven 200W portable solar panels to supplement the AC-coupled solar, and I still had the MPPT Setting on PV3 Only. I'm not sure if that was it, but I got it working after switching to Off Grid. I tried lots of things (while driving the car, definitely not safe or smart), and I'm not sure which of those did the trick since there seems to be some delay in the response of the EG4 18Kpv to new settings in the remote app. I switched back to No PV for the MPPT Setting that evening, and turned off the Off Grid setting, and the AC-coupled power came on by itself the next morning.

I am not happy with the EG4 18Kpv's habit of turning off the AC-coupled solar and switching to battery power (with grid down) as soon as the batteries are fully charged by the solar panels (set at 57 V). It'll do this even when there is more than ample solar power to cover all the loads. There is no reason to use anything other than solar power if there's enough of it available. I hope EG4 or LuxPower gives us the option of only using batteries when there is no other power available. There is no way to make this happen when using the SOC% or Vdc settings (as far as I can tell). I think they could use a "logic tree" approach, rather than SOC% or Vdc settings, to accomplish this.

Example 1: If the grid is up, and there is adequate solar power available, use solar power for loads. If there is inadequate solar power, use grid power to supplement the solar power for loads. There should never be a need to use battery power if the grid is up. 200A pass-through should take care of anything. I realize that some folks will use battery power to reduce expensive grid power consumption, but my preference is to maximize how long my batteries can supply my home when the grid is down. electricity is fairly cheap here in Florida.

Example 2: If the grid is down, and there is adequate solar power available, use solar power for loads. If there is inadequate solar power, use battery power to supplement the solar power for loads. If the solar power increases above the load requirements, start charging the batteries with the excess solar power. When batteries won't take any more charging, shut them down and continue using only solar power for loads.

I don't care what settings they need to use to accomplish this. I don't need to know. The settings they've made available to us do NOT accomplish this. Based on some feedback I've received, I think that EG4 is working to update their software to allow some of this capability while the grid is up. Now that I've done my first grid down simulation, I can say that I'd also like them to make changes to cover when the grid is down.
What micro inverter do you have? Which UL standard are they certified to?
 
An ac coupled inverter can absolutely throttle the grid tie inverter to only supply enough to power the loads when the batteries are full.
Depending on the GTI. Some only do full on or off.
 
if UL1741SA, but it still can't do it quickly enough to respond to load changes.
Doesn't have to happen lightning quickly since it will just draw from grid or battery momentarily.

But it should absolutely be able to supply loads from pv if available
 
Doesn't have to happen lightning quickly

Disagree.

What happens when the GTI it outputting 4500W to meet the W/H load, and then that load goes to zero instantly? Battery is full. Where does 4500W go? How long can the system absorb it with nowhere to go? How long does it take the GTI to go from 4500W to 0W?

since it will just draw from grid or battery momentarily.

Umm... we are talking about GRID DOWN here, and powering loads isn't an issue. The battery inverter has that covered. The issue is the EXCESS from the GTI.

But it should absolutely be able to supply loads from pv if available

In theory, sure. In reality, way harder than most think.
 
Disagree.

What happens when the GTI it outputting 4500W to meet the W/H load, and then that load goes to zero instantly? Battery is full. Where does 4500W go? How long can the system absorb it with nowhere to go? How long does it take the GTI to go from 4500W to 0W?
even if it took 10 secs to decrease the output that would be a whopping 0.012kwh added to the battery. The battery can absorb that . In reality it's a lot faster than that. Couple of seconds max.
Umm... we are talking about GRID DOWN here, and powering loads isn't an issue. The battery inverter has that covered. The issue is the EXCESS from the GTI.
There why I said battery or grid, depending on settings. If there is no grid the battery supplies any loads before gt inverter kicks in
In theory, sure. In reality, way harder than most think.
Not really. My system does it every day. Battery full at noon, which coincides with peak production. Battery inverter perfectly manages output to supply loads but not charge battery
 
What GTI inverter do you have?
Growatt min tl xh us 11400

I should also mention- when a load turns off and the battery absorbs the excess, in the next few seconds the battery in inverter will discharge that excess back to the loads to maintain balance.
 
Growatt min tl xh us 11400

I should also mention- when a load turns off and the battery absorbs the excess, in the next few seconds the battery in inverter will discharge that excess back to the loads to maintain balance.

And what is your off-grid inverter to which you are AC coupled?
 
What micro inverter do you have? Which UL standard are they certified to?
I'm not using micro-inverters on the solar array. My grid-tied inverter is a Delta M8-TL-US with two strings attached, and I have no idea what its throttling down characteristics are. If, as some have said, it can only respond to on or off signals, then I understand why it's doing this. I thought I read somewhere that the EG4 18Kpv would shift frequencies in increments, but if the grid-tied inverter doesn't "understand" incremental changes it won't respond correctly.
 
if UL1741SA, but it still can't do it quickly enough to respond to load changes.
STANDARDS / DIRECTIVES
Enclosure protection rating
Type 4
Safety
UL 1741, CSA-C22.2 No. 107.1-01
Software approval
UL 1998
Ground fault protectionUL 1741 CRD
Anti-islanding protectionIEEE 1547, IEEE 1547.1
EMCFCC part 15 Class B
AFCIUL 1699B (Type 1), NEC 2017 Article 690.11
Integrated meter
Grid support regulation
ANSI C12.20 (meets 0.5% accuracy)
UL 1741 SA, California Rule 21, HECO Compliant
 
Recently did the same experiment. My GTI output was reduced to only a few hundred watts even in a full winter sun. The batteries had depleted overnite to 40% and charged throughout the day until full. The GTI seemed to respond to the Freq Shift to reduce output/ saw it drop quickly from 4200watts to 1200W in what seemed like minute and then while in float it stayed until batts were 100%, then dropped to 300W to power load. Seemed to take a bit longer to ramp up when a large load started. so the batteries filled the lag. was relatively short
 
What micro inverter do you have? Which UL standard are they certified to?
Its a Delta M8-TL-US,
Here's the technical stuff from the manual.

STANDARDS / DIRECTIVES
Enclosure protection rating
Type 4
Safety
UL 1741, CSA-C22.2 No. 107.1-01
Software approval
UL 1998
Ground fault protectionUL 1741 CRD
Anti-islanding protectionIEEE 1547, IEEE 1547.1
EMCFCC part 15 Class B
AFCIUL 1699B (Type 1), NEC 2017 Article 690.11
Integrated meter
Grid support regulation
ANSI C12.20 (meets 0.5% accuracy)
UL 1741 SA, California Rule 21, HECO Compliant
 
STANDARDS / DIRECTIVES
Enclosure protection rating
Type 4
Safety
UL 1741, CSA-C22.2 No. 107.1-01
Software approval
UL 1998
Ground fault protectionUL 1741 CRD
Anti-islanding protectionIEEE 1547, IEEE 1547.1
EMCFCC part 15 Class B
AFCIUL 1699B (Type 1), NEC 2017 Article 690.11
Integrated meter
Grid support regulation
ANSI C12.20 (meets 0.5% accuracy)
UL 1741 SA, California Rule 21, HECO Compliant
It has ca rule 21 so it can derate output. You may have to match the settings on the eg4 and Delta. For example if the eg4 is set to ieee1547 or ul1741 and the Delta is set to ca rule 21, the eg4 will derate for a bit but the Delta will shut down after 300 seconds above 60.5hz.

If you have a way to log your frequency we can solve this really quickly
 
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This may have something to do with either the kpv settings or grid tie inverter settings. Which grid tie inverter do you use? The kpv should be able to smoothly throttle the output of the grid tie inverter to only cover loads when the battery is full. It should do this by slowly raising the frequency. I believe @BKY2003 has this function working. If the grid tie inverter does not derate it's output on command of the kpv then the kpv will raise the system frequency high enough to simply shut down the grid tie inverter.

Do you have a way to track the system frequency in hz?\
Delta M8-TL-US. I'll be looking for a frequency readout to check.
 
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