Anybody own a diesel PHEV in the USA?

[D71]

Yes parts are usually marked-up 100%.

Lot higher then that. Lol ?? Insane prices. One of the things that always shocked me putting bikes together was common hardware prices. Grade 5 bolts and such were expensive. ?? Hard to find cheap source and still get quality.

FYI

If it was more efficient to run an engine which ran a generator to make electricity and then use that electricity to run a motor that drove the wheels then that's what manufacturers would do.

That's way less mechanically complex than making a transmission and running driveshafts and stuff.

You ever notice most car innovations came from other applications like space program, military, air planes, locomotives, and heavy industries? With exception military have spent my working life in it. Best years of our life is spent working. ??

btw there is no drive shaft in modern locomotives. ?? Mag lev trains are flat motors. hmmmm ever seen a mag lev auto?

we load tested our locomotives against the grids. Nice $30,000 screens show volts amps hp rpm fuel throttle notch high voltage ground leakages temps so on. Those 4400 hp diesel engines just turned the alternator that made the power to move things along. Then there was dynamic braking 6 figure braking forces.

Cat owns Progressive Rail which bought EMD locomotives from GM.
GE sold off their locomotive to WABTEC(westinghouse)
The tier 4 locomotives were good with fuel considering the hp. It takes a lot of fuel to feed high hp engines. You really need only enough to do the basic transportation …. That is the hard part. Just because a locomotive had 8 notches of power did not mean it should be in number 8 all the time. We also built massive hp locomotives but they destroyed the tracks. Slight grades were the test for locomotives and you’d be amazed at how slight could be a challenge. We even reconfigured the hp in the train consist and operated them remotely from leads. Draw bar forces. ??

You’d think after the moon rover that we would have maintained the edge on ev. We haven’t stepped foot on the moon in 50+ years.

I keep waiting to see EV cars have problems with grounds. They are experiencing some when attempting to charge. Loco we do not use chasdis ground except computers. Airplanes were similar. Cars have chassis grounds. ?? so if one side gets a ground for say what happens if the other side goes to ground with ev. Do the EV have chassis grounds or not? They did automotive chassis grounds to cut wire cost.

how is an ev wired ? Does it have ground detection circuits On dc buss and inverter sides? Or is this why they have been bursting into flames?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

It's a logging truck. Designed for low speed operation. Charge it up, deplete the batteries climbing up to the landing, load up with logs and then recover a bunch of energy on the way back down the mountain and then deplete battery to zero on the freeway to the mill. The engine is for backup or when you need to go the last mile. This is a good truck for this specific purpose.

That’s only one of what they are making.
They have interest from all kinds of street based rigs in different configurations.

 

[Checkthisout]

That’s only one of what they are making.
They have interest from all kinds of street based rigs in different configurations.

The same principle applies no matter what.

It's never more efficient to go from mechanical (internal combustion) to electric to mechanical than it is to just keep it mechanical.

There has to be other benefits.

Let me put it this way. The reason Edison Electric (trucks) does not have the ability to couple the engine directly to the wheels is because they don't have the money or engineering backing to do that. Not because their way saves fuel.

 

[Checkthisout]

Lot higher then that. Lol ?? Insane prices. One of the things that always shocked me putting bikes together was common hardware prices. Grade 5 bolts and such were expensive. ?? Hard to find cheap source and still get quality.


You ever notice most car innovations came from other applications like space program, military, air planes, locomotives, and heavy industries? With exception military have spent my working life in it. Best years of our life is spent working. ??

btw there is no drive shaft in modern locomotives. ?? Mag lev trains are flat motors. hmmmm ever seen a mag lev auto?

we load tested our locomotives against the grids. Nice $30,000 screens show volts amps hp rpm fuel throttle notch high voltage ground leakages temps so on. Those 4400 hp diesel engines just turned the alternator that made the power to move things along. Then there was dynamic braking 6 figure braking forces.

Cat owns Progressive Rail which bought EMD locomotives from GM.
GE sold off their locomotive to WABTEC(westinghouse)
The tier 4 locomotives were good with fuel considering the hp. It takes a lot of fuel to feed high hp engines. You really need only enough to do the basic transportation …. That is the hard part. Just because a locomotive had 8 notches of power did not mean it should be in number 8 all the time. We also built massive hp locomotives but they destroyed the tracks. Slight grades were the test for locomotives and you’d be amazed at how slight could be a challenge. We even reconfigured the hp in the train consist and operated them remotely from leads. Draw bar forces. ??

You’d think after the moon rover that we would have maintained the edge on ev. We haven’t stepped foot on the moon in 50+ years.

I keep waiting to see EV cars have problems with grounds. They are experiencing some when attempting to charge. Loco we do not use chasdis ground except computers. Airplanes were similar. Cars have chassis grounds. ?? so if one side gets a ground for say what happens if the other side goes to ground with ev. Do the EV have chassis grounds or not? They did automotive chassis grounds to cut wire cost.

how is an ev wired ? Does it have ground detection circuits On dc buss and inverter sides? Or is this why they have been bursting into flames?

Locomotives give me a boner! Always awkward when I stop to check one out that's idling on the siding.

Every once in a blue moon I'm lucky enough to be there when they are throttling up to go.

Their fuel consumption is rated in gallons per mile instead of miles per gallon. ?

Albeit the only fair way to rate them is Ton Miles Per Gallon.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

The same principle applies no matter what.

It's never more efficient to go from mechanical (internal combustion) to electric to mechanical than it is to just keep it mechanical.

There has to be other benefits.

Let me put it this way. The reason Edison Electric (trucks) does not have the ability to couple the engine directly to the wheels is because they don't have the money or engineering backing to do that. Not because their way saves fuel.

I can’t imagine them doing this if it wasn’t economically feasible nor the people investing in it.

 

[Checkthisout]

I can’t imagine them doing this if it wasn’t economically feasible nor the people investing in it.

As stated earlier, it's fine for that narrow application (Logging Truck) but a waste for OTR trucking.

If you think otherwise, post some numbers to back it up.? Keeps things interesting.

 

[D71]

Locomotives give me a bone! Always awkward when I stop to check one out that's idling on the siding.

Every once in a blue moon I'm lucky enough to be there when they are throttling up to go.

I liked airplanes better but had put name on stuff that the Corporate Dicks try to pin on ppl after a crash. They go through everything to nail someone. Sometime their bs policies are what caused it. DEI

With locomotive during maintenance we built spotter circuits - jog so that a traction motor could be energized with the 64v dc batteries onboard locomotive to motor a dc traction motor or 2. we didn’t need the engine. Just had to have air in reservoir to stop it. ??
This spotting became much more difficult to do when we went to ac traction motors. We had to fire the igbt for a tm circuit - coupled to dc battery. Same as using an igbt tm circuit to batteries - energize the main alternator to crank the diesel engine. We use to have simple electric or pneumatic starters on diesel engines. ?? complications ….like 2nd lt in military with an idea. The KISS principle is often tossed out the door. Then someone says watch this shit.

Btw when you cable a locomotive and get to aggressive the battery leads can and will burn up which causes a fire - destroyed battery post. The EV battery fires are maybe the same - weakest link - battery connections. Hmmmm ….. from what seen the ev destroy the evidence needed when they catch on fire. That shit is violent.

Does anyone know where to get a circuit of tesla layout for their ground detection circuits. KGR-Kicking ground relay is a big deal in heavy industry. Think we will see that as ev age if It is equipped. The locomotives go dead for the pulls until cleared. The Rav4 hybrids from Canada had some problems with their cabling and the repair cost were crazy high. I think they were shutting the rav4 down due to the cable…. So they have to be monitoring-measuring it.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

As stated earlier, it's fine for that narrow application (Logging Truck) but a waste for OTR trucking.

If you think otherwise, post some numbers to back it up.? Keeps things interesting.

Not my field and Edison is just getting started.

They wouldn’t be doing it if it wasn’t feasible.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Does anyone know where to get a circuit of tesla layout for their ground detection circuits. KGR-Kicking ground relay is a big deal in heavy industry. Think we will see that as ev age if It is equipped. The locomotives go dead for the pulls until cleared. The Rav4 hybrids from Canada had some problems with their cabling and the repair cost were crazy high. I think they were shutting the rav4 down due to the cable…. So they have to be monitoring-measuring it.

These guys should.
They teach how to work in EVS.

 

[eXodus]

I am sorry but i3 is a joke. (at least for me).
I want a camry-like car with 1000 miles range, that refuels in 3 minutes and accelerates 0-60 in under 6 seconds

The i3 is a limited use-case car and never had the chance to get great because of internal struggles. After the CEO left which approved the funding in the first place - the next didn't have much love for EVs so it got little R&D after the initial launch. Aftermarket had been putting in 400 mile batteries and the people increase the fuel tank size from the pathetic 2.6g Gallon (good for 100 miles) to 10.6 Gallon. So you got 400 miles electric and 400 miles on fuel. So the platform (I01) had the potential - unfortunately never got much love.

There had also been a 4 door Sedan - and a shorter 2 door planned (i4 and i2) on the same I01 skateboard. But didn't go anywhere. The 4 door would essentially just a stretched i3. With more space for batteries. So maybe 500 miles on a battery.

 

[eXodus]

Not even close. They vary in load and rpm widely.
Generator one RPM one load.
If they were efficient they wouldn’t need DEF and particulate filters to catch unburned fuel.

very true, accelerating, elevation, wind, other vehicles passing by.

Engines in semi trucks are always running at optimal load because they have 18 speeds which keeps gear to gear RPM drop very low.

anyone who ever read some vehicle data see how much fuel injectors cycles vary during "constant operations"

- any transmission connected engine has load spikes all the time. You get from pushing to pulling in small intervals. A engine connected to a transmission lasts less long - it eats the bearings much earlier then a constant generator. A road going engine last about 1/4 from the same engine connected to a generator. So a 1 Million mile engine would last 4 million miles in a generator situation

A generator, truly constant

If it was more efficient to run an engine which ran a generator to make electricity and then use that electricity to run a motor that drove the wheels then that's what manufacturers would do.

no because it is something new, and new is scary
The Unions will protest because the transmission plant is going to be shut down.
The dealers and mechanics will complain because there is less to repair und fewer services to make.

It is always funny when my BMW dealer sends me annual service reminder, While my i3 has 3 year intervals, with very little to during the service. That's 1/3 profit for the dealer. No wonder they hate selling EVs.
If some would tell you - do something which costs you 70% of your profit?

Lots of vested interest in keeping existing systems going.

 

[eXodus]

It's never more efficient to go from mechanical (internal combustion) to electric to mechanical than it is to just keep it mechanical.

on a pure physics base - you are correct. Directly connecting a engine to the wheel.

But then their is reality of driving - which far from perfect.

A transmission is not loss free - you know what those huge transmission coolers are for? Lost energy. 6-10% of your engine power gets burned up in the transmission.
The prop shaft spinning under your vehicle 0.5-1% (air resistance, inertia)
The differential 4-5%

In a regular street car application - the drivetrain losses can be in the 15-20% range. 80-85% efficient Just making metal and fluids warm.


A generator is 95% efficient and Inverter 98% efficient - the electric motor is 90% efficient. 95% * 98% * 90% = 84% total efficiency.

So the drivetrain losses are very similar. But the generator needs less fuel to produce this - because constant load.

 

[Checkthisout]

So the drivetrain losses are very similar. But the generator needs less fuel to produce this - because constant load.

Then why does an I3 with range extender only get 31mpg in gasoline only mode and my larger 4wd Mazda with automatic and 3 times the horsepower gets 33?

 

[aenyc]

The i3 is a limited use-case car and never had the chance to get great because of internal struggles. After the CEO left which approved the funding in the first place - the next didn't have much love for EVs so it got little R&D after the initial launch. Aftermarket had been putting in 400 mile batteries and the people increase the fuel tank size from the pathetic 2.6g Gallon (good for 100 miles) to 10.6 Gallon. So you got 400 miles electric and 400 miles on fuel. So the platform (I01) had the potential - unfortunately never got much love.

There had also been a 4 door Sedan - and a shorter 2 door planned (i4 and i2) on the same I01 skateboard. But didn't go anywhere. The 4 door would essentially just a stretched i3. With more space for batteries. So maybe 500 miles on a battery.

i bought a M440 after reading data on the i4(M50) - plagued by battery fires. (I would buy one as a toy for an occasional summer race but thermal runway makes it a no-no with current tech).
i3 is way to small - no chance in case of even a minor accident. (imagine a large SUV hitting it?) Its a city car that is just above an electric bike.

 

[eXodus]

Then why does an I3 with range extender only get 31mpg in gasoline only mode and my larger 4wd Mazda with automatic and 3 times the horsepower gets 33?

Most i3 driver are getting closer to 40 MPG.
For whatever reason the EPA down rated the i3 over the years from 39 to 31 - with no changes to the car or the engine.

The i3 is a 2010 design. Comparing the aero from back then with a modern aero is kind oranges to apples.

 

[Checkthisout]

on a pure physics base - you are correct. Directly connecting a engine to the wheel.

But then their is reality of driving - which far from perfect.

A transmission is not loss free - you know what those huge transmission coolers are for? Lost energy. 6-10% of your engine power gets burned up in the transmission.
The prop shaft spinning under your vehicle 0.5-1% (air resistance, inertia)
The differential 4-5%

In a regular street car application - the drivetrain losses can be in the 15-20% range. 80-85% efficient Just making metal and fluids warm.


A generator is 95% efficient and Inverter 98% efficient - the electric motor is 90% efficient. 95% * 98% * 90% = 84% total efficiency.

So the drivetrain losses are very similar. But the generator needs less fuel to produce this - because constant load.

View attachment 190851

Most i3 driver are getting closer to 40 MPG.
For whatever reason the EPA down rated the i3 over the years from 39 to 31 - with no changes to the car or the engine.

The EPA downrated all cars to what they were actually getting.

The i3 is a 2010 design. Comparing the aero from back then with a modern aero is kind oranges to apples.

?

This or generating electricity with the engine and converting it back to mechanical energy is less efficient than just driving the wheels directly.

 

[AlaskanNoob]

Just rented a BMW 330E PHEV, first time I've ever driven an electric vehicle of any kind. Since we don't have any diesel PHEVs in the U.S., might look into picking up a gas PHEV. Probably a RAV4 Prime.

 

[D71]

Just rented a BMW 330E PHEV, first time I've ever driven an electric vehicle of any kind. Since we don't have any diesel PHEVs in the U.S., might look into picking up a gas PHEV. Probably a RAV4 Prime.

I like Rav4 Prime but local dealers been marking them up Supply and demand
I found this guy to be wealth of info about rav4. He is a career toyota mech that went independent.

https://www.youtube.com/@TheCarCareNut/search?query=rav4

He did really good video on the engine and maintenance. 0-16 weight oil …. absolutely and he recommends 5000 miles vs 10000 mile oil changes. I agree - filter and oil is cheap so change it. Some things about this engine worry me but he seems confident with them.
part 1

Part 2

I went with 2024 Rav4 straight gas. The mark up did not excite me ~$50,000 Prime vs mine ~$31,000 .~$19,000 mark up in my local - crazy ppl…. $19000 will buy a lot of fuel and other things. Some dealers are around $55000 Dealers piss me off doing that kind of mark up. They have supply and demand on their side. The new 2024 Tacoma is suppose to have hybrid coming but it will probably be way over priced-marked up. The 2024 Tacoma TRD is in new Tundra territory for pricing. I am not a big fan of turbo engines on gas street cars ….. why don’t like honda as much anymore.

BTW think they fixed rear motor lead - housing problems.
Think this guy has video on it.

The ~42 miles battery and ~2.5 hr charge time sound good.

 

[Checkthisout]

I like Rav4 Prime but local dealers been marking them up Supply and demand
I found this guy to be wealth of info about rav4. He is a career toyota mech that went independent.

https://www.youtube.com/@TheCarCareNut/search?query=rav4

He did really good video on the engine and maintenance. 0-16 weight oil …. absolutely and he recommends 5000 miles vs 10000 mile oil changes. I agree - filter and oil is cheap so change it. Some things about this engine worry me but he seems confident with them.
part 1

Part 2

I went with 2024 Rav4 straight gas. The mark up did not excite me ~$50,000 Prime vs mine ~$31,000 .~$19,000 mark up in my local - crazy ppl…. $19000 will buy a lot of fuel and other things. Some dealers are around $55000 Dealers piss me off doing that kind of mark up. They have supply and demand on their side. The new 2024 Tacoma is suppose to have hybrid coming but it will probably be way over priced-marked up. The 2024 Tacoma TRD is in new Tundra territory for pricing. I am not a big fan of turbo engines on gas street cars ….. why don’t like honda as much anymore.

BTW think they fixed rear motor lead - housing problems.
Think this guy has video on it.

The ~42 miles battery and ~2.5 hr charge time sound good.

The hybrid tundra only has 1.5kwh battery.

 

[aenyc]

What i dont like is presence of LiO battery in most PHEVs today (Such as BMW, etc)
The other super annoying part is that these PHEVs can NOT charge the battery from the engine! They need to be PLUGGED in to recharge the battery! (At least BMWs for sure).
This is either insane stupidity, or intentional crippling, my guess the latter.

And then what happens if the LIO battery goes on fire - how long until the gas tank explodes? They are much smaller LIO batteries but still if a thermal runway occurs, its a pretty safe bet that gas tank will be compromised and will explode.