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Anybody own a diesel PHEV in the USA?

What i dont like is presence of LiO battery in most PHEVs today (Such as BMW, etc)
The other super annoying part is that these PHEVs can NOT charge the battery from the engine! They need to be PLUGGED in to recharge the battery! (At least BMWs for sure).
This is either insane stupidity, or intentional crippling, my guess the latter.

And then what happens if the LIO battery goes on fire - how long until the gas tank explodes? They are much smaller LIO batteries but still if a thermal runway occurs, its a pretty safe bet that gas tank will be compromised and will explode.

You guys aren't thinking this through at all.

If the engine turns on to charge up the battery, it's just wasting fuel going through an inefficient process and bunting the opportunity to recharge the car via the grid and not use gasoline.


A car with a "range extender" engine is either an electric car carrying around an engine and fuel it hardly needs.

Or a gasoline engine car with tiny engine carrying around a bunch of batteries and electric motor it doesn't need.
 
You guys aren't thinking this through at all.

If the engine turns on to charge up the battery, it's just wasting fuel going through an inefficient process and bunting the opportunity to recharge the car via the grid and not use gasoline.


A car with a "range extender" engine is either an electric car carrying around an engine and fuel it hardly needs.

Or a gasoline engine car with tiny engine carrying around a bunch of batteries and electric motor it doesn't need.
Its called a prius :)
 
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You guys aren't thinking this through at all.

If the engine turns on to charge up the battery, it's just wasting fuel going through an inefficient process and bunting the opportunity to recharge the car via the grid and not use gasoline.


A car with a "range extender" engine is either an electric car carrying around an engine and fuel it hardly needs.

Or a gasoline engine car with tiny engine carrying around a bunch of batteries and electric motor it doesn't need.

You are confusing chickens from crocodiles.

What I said is that current (at least BMW) plugin hybrid can not recharge its battery from the engine, which is a "parallel" hybrid. Both motors (electric and gas) drive the wheel (like a Pruis).
Yet, BMW requires it to be plugged in to charge the battery - if you dont plug it in, the gas engine can still drive the car, but the electric motor becomes dead until the vehicle is charged by being plugged in.
This is a very bad design.

What it should have been is just like a prius, with an additional option to charge via plug-in.
 
You are confusing chickens from crocodiles.

What I said is that current (at least BMW) plugin hybrid can not recharge its battery from the engine, which is a "parallel" hybrid. Both motors (electric and gas) drive the wheel (like a Pruis).
Yet, BMW requires it to be plugged in to charge the battery - if you dont plug it in, the gas engine can still drive the car, but the electric motor becomes dead until the vehicle is charged by being plugged in.
This is a very bad design.

What it should have been is just like a prius, with an additional option to charge via plug-in.

If that is the case with that particular vehicle, it's because of what I said.

It doesn't make sense to initiate recharging with the gas engine and remove the opportunity to plug the vehicle into grid power and avoid the use of gasoline so you just run it off the battery until it's dead and then switch over to gas.

The battery still recharges via regenerative braking.
 
Before buying Rav4 Prime ….. Break down on Rav4 Prime from a mechanic familiar with it


go to ~17:00 mark to learn how this system works… The Rav4 Prime has an onboard charge mode
 
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I find the 2024 Prius plug interesting too. Cheaper priced but sedan are not good for bad back so prefer more ground clearance - higher seat height. Not much room in hatch.

hmmmm… looks better. He talks about hybrid and Prime versions. The Prime according to him is step up and over the normal Prius hybrid.

Toyota PHEV
 
I find the 2024 Prius plug interesting too. Cheaper priced but sedan are not good for bad back so prefer more ground clearance - higher seat height. Not much room in hatch.

hmmmm… looks better. He talks about hybrid and Prime versions. The Prime according to him is step up and over the normal Prius hybrid.

Toyota PHEV

Just looked at that. Heard the 2024 has 80 miles of EV range. Solid. And affordable.

But only 2WD which makes it a no go for us. Plus it doesn't tow anything. But definitely worth looking into.
 
My biggest problem with new cars is like this meme…. Just don’t see them standing the test of time such as this:

IMG_4674.png
there is always electric vehicle conversion if it really wants to live longer if fuel-gas runs out. Always be a classic shoe box America has a love affair with cars. 🤣😀
 
Thanks for the rav4 prime post. I think I'll buy one if the wife likes it. Have to wait till she gets home.
The Prime - charge mode being built in is a unique feature according to the video. It gives you a lot of options with vehicle operation too. That guy in video is more believable then majority 6 figure - 7 figure high paid talkers. He is in the trenches up close to the operational aspects of these vehicles. Combined mode ~300 hp Rav4 Prime is interesting….. Don’t be upset if dealers mark them up or can’t find the model you want. They go quick.

I think these are made-assembled in Canada too.

Toyota has more experience than ppl realize. Why the kick our ass. Plus the Japanese learned from Man named Edwards Deming.
“Deming's message to Japan's chief executives was that improving quality would reduce expenses, while increasing productivity and market share‘’
Common sense do it right the first time so don’t have to do it again. Why rushed EV is killing automotive market. The battery replacements alone are insane for price. There use to be a sign that stated, “never enough time to do the job right the first time but plenty of time to do it over again.” Ever notice when Steve Jobs was alive you usually got 1 yearly software update but now there is one seems like once or twice a week. Microsoft was shit because it was multiple updates on daily base sometimes. 🤣😀 Now Apple is the same.

Took American car makers decades to play catch up. I think the 1900-1970 era was our hey day. Why the shoe box 1955 chevy is still loved. Built to last. New cars are designed to last a set point. Probably why the Japanese scrap so many then we see their pulled parts here listed as JDM. 🤣😀 The Japanese loved good swords that were passed down through generations …. The tradition of sword making and car making was separated. Quality to price point to retirement. Just my notice.

IMG_4676.jpeg
The double reinforced covers protecting the batteries on Rav4 underside is really good idea. I do not want the batteries in the interior with me. Old Ford Pinto status coming up. Most of old classic Fords with gas tank as part of trunk were law suits too. Ford still gets sued. I don’t think batteries should share interior.

The plain gas Rav4 TRD is not a good buy for the money…. Think a Prime is better. They do have a woodlands hybrid version of Rav4 but it didn’t do so well off road… There are videos online… think they have slow speed EV mode which should be good off road until wheel slid increases tire speed and system shuts down. They are doing amazing things with wheel speed sensors and clamping up anti-lock to locked spinning wheels to transfer power.

Sadly pricing is up about $6000 thanks to Biden and inflation. Thought this was good video when I was looking at them. This is 2021 Prime stronger electric motors - more hp then standard hybrid.
 
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The Rav4 Prime with stronger electric motors give it several advantages over regular hybrid. Definitely why Prime ev mode is so much better than standard Toyota hybrids. Compare that previous video of the Prime off road to this Woodlands Hybrid. Video maker talks about the EV mode on this Woodlands edition of standard hybrid….. weak.

Think the electric motors are most significant where the Rav4 prime is in ev for electric off roading. Think would be even better if it had 10”+ ground clearance. 🤣😀.
As we know The ground clearance is limit for off road for vehicles in most areas. I’ve seen drive ways here that need raise 4wheel drive to go up - owners keep it that way on purpose. Alaska use to have rough roads are they better now?

My interest:
I waited to see this Toyota Stout but it never appeared for the USA market it has been a teaser. So now they say late 2024 or 2025 or????. Not sure what it will have for power. Toyota videos about Stout claim hybrid or ev but not confirmed. If it ever makes it should be interesting but am sure they will use running gear already available but adapted over. Ground clearance on Stout will be interesting as well as tow abilities. Rav4 Prime setup in this would be interesting combines 300+ hp. 😀 Might hurt the new redesigned Tacoma sales though. Hmmmm they might put Rav4 Prime setup in new Tacoma. Or couple the Prime ev with the new turbo 4 for Tacoma. The Toyota Crown has Hybrid MAX 2.4-Liter Inline 4-Cylinder Turbocharged Hybrid….. Who knows. 😀🤣 This Stout model maybe vapor ware. It was originally suppose to take on Ford Maverick for price point. I don’t think they can do it.
IMG_1358.jpeg

Tacoma

“i-FORCE MAX Hybrid Powertrain​

The available i-FORCE MAX hybrid powertrain introduces an unprecedented level of torque to your world. The 2.4-liter turbocharged engine, combined with a 48-hp electric motor, delivers a commanding 326 maximum horsepower and an astounding 465 lb.-ft. of low-end torque.“
 
If that is the case with that particular vehicle, it's because of what I said.

It doesn't make sense to initiate recharging with the gas engine and remove the opportunity to plug the vehicle into grid power and avoid the use of gasoline so you just run it off the battery until it's dead and then switch over to gas.

The battery still recharges via regenerative braking.

You are still confusing chickens and ducks!

Regenerative breaking does not provide anywhere near enough energy to give battery sufficient power where plugging in is not necessery.
And charging initiation can very easily be controlled with modern electronics.
So I dont buy it. Plugging in should be strictly optional. There should always be an option to recharge while driving (like a Prius).
A decision to now allow gas engine charging of PHEV battery is purely political. It makes no sense otherwise.
 
You are still confusing chickens and ducks!

Regenerative breaking does not provide anywhere near enough energy to give battery sufficient power where plugging in is not necessery.
And charging initiation can very easily be controlled with modern electronics.
So I dont buy it. Plugging in should be strictly optional. There should always be an option to recharge while driving (like a Prius).
A decision to now allow gas engine charging of PHEV battery is purely political. It makes no sense otherwise.
The Rav4 Prime does it as well with a mode selection to recharge batteries . ReGen braking works better in stop - go traffic for obvious reasons. 🤣😀
 
The Rav4 Prime does it as well with a mode selection to recharge batteries . ReGen braking works better in stop - go traffic for obvious reasons. 🤣😀

The only thing that remains is seeing this tech on a vast array of vehicles besides RAV4/Prius (Which are highly love em or hate em).
I want to see this on a Camry/Accord. Honda is surprisingly (or unsurprisingly) laying low in the whole electrification thing.
And all the germans, who seem to be going in the opposite direction with all the woke.
 

That’s what makes the EV ‘transition’ so fascinating. If there is one thing that is glaringly obvious in the whole topic, it is that people absolutely do not purchase ‘what they are supposed to’. You can’t make any sense out of it, because the whims and motivations come from external influences that are unpredictable. If Taylor Swift started driving a black Toyota Corolla sedan all of a sudden, what do you think would happen to black Toyota Corolla sedan sales? Not sales of grey ones though, pah! What am I, crazy? Who’d be caught dead in one of those things?

So now, particularly here in Canada but in many other jurisdictions including California, drivers are being told they will not be allowed to buy any new vehicle that isn’t EV, nor will manufacturers be allowed to sell anything that isn’t an EV.

The manufacturers are playing their part, nervously unveiling EV after EV after EV. They advertise the crap out of them, auto publications dutifully test and review them, and the media breathlessly reports how a model’s sales skyrocket by, say 33 percent, when sales go from 3 to 4 units per month.29dk2902l

The media also jumped all over stories about huge demand backlogs, how some new model about to enter showrooms has thousands and thousands of orders or deposits. In 2021, news widely circulated that “Ford F-150 Lightning pre-orders have been closed after nearly 200k reservations”, or Motor Trend’s “Ford Takes in More Than 44,500 F-150 Lightning Orders in 48 Hours”.

Think about how amazing that order book is. A mass manufacturer like Ford is so swamped with interest that they simply must grandiosely and loudly announce: “Sorry Sir or Madam, we can no longer take your order, our success is just too overwhelming.” Many manufacturers reported similar order-book hysteria.

It turns out that the story was surreal, but not quite as it sounds. Through all of 2022, Ford sold only 15,617 electric pickups. The headlines for 2022 results remain starry eyed and insipid: “Ford Tripled BEV Sales In December, Doubled In 2022”, although that couldn’t hold a candle to the infantile enthrallment saved for late 2023: “Ford F-150 Lightning breaks monthly sales record, doubling in November”.

Sales in November 2023 did indeed ‘double’ compared to the prior November, but in the entire quarter Ford sold only 11,905 units. In the two years after the hail-the-future order book bumper crop, Ford only sold about 40,000 F-150 Lightnings. In two years. Recently Ford announced a halving of 2024 production plans down to about 1,600 units per week, or just under 7,000 per month.

Keep in mind that in 2023 Ford sold over 750,000 F-150 internal combustion pickups in the US, and many of these go to urban dwellers for whom an EV pickup might make total sense – ones that rarely leave the city (EVs are in general far better suited to urban environments where they can scoot home safely to a nice warm private charging station every night).

Which brings us back to consumer behaviour again, that mystifying and surely exasperating trait of humanity that no amount of cajoling and ‘proper thinking’ will break. “Two hundred thousand reservations!” to “Slashing production forecasts!” In half. On a variant of the most popular vehicle in the US.

Tesla continues to dominate EV sales, and many people, when they decide they want an EV, mean they want a Tesla (in the pickup world, Rivian might be the Tesla of EV pickups, time will tell). Major auto manufacturers are having a very difficult time seeing EV sales grow to any level that would approach profitability.

It’s hard not to feel bad for them, if one can or should feel bad for huge corporations. How on earth does one plan for the coming year, when two hundred thousand consumers say yes, I want one of those, but then 80 percent change their mind by the time Ford can actually manufacture them?

But observe; whispering in their manufacturing ears are governments saying not subtly that “Don’t worry, we will be legislating internal combustion out of existence, just build them and they will come…” Said less loudly is the supporting evidence: “because they have no choice.” Well, it worked for a while in the Soviet Union didn’t it?

Making things even more complicated for manufacturers are upcoming elections in the US (this year) and Canada (what feels like an eternity but is really only 1.5 years) that could see either minor or major revisions to EV policy rollouts of the past few years.

But forget all the uncertainty surrounding manufacturers; that all gets trumped (no pun intended) by the human element. Here’s an important realization that we all need to accept: Some stuff just gives us a sense of belonging with others in a way that is critical to mental well being. Some people like to dress in the latest fashion. Some get the most popular hair styling. Some drive a rugged SUV because of what it says about them.

That can make manufacturers pull their hair out, because something illogical might be their biggest hit ever. But on top of that one must now layer the rancid decay of politics. EV sales seem to be falling along political fault lines, which in a way is not surprising: one side of the political spectrum sees climate change as a moral imperative to be dealt with as rapidly as possible, and that element, to the extent it can afford it, is responsible for the highest uptake of EVs (it is another sign that ‘left wing vs. right wing’ is a historical anachronism of little value any more; the traditional ‘left’ represented the working class, the downtrodden, the ones that needed a safety net; today’s main EV purchasers are wealthy enough to pursue Teslas first and foremost, often with a multi-car garage full of options). EV as political statement is yet another example of how our preferences link us to a tribe of our choice, rational or not, and it will be supra-humanly difficult to change that, whether in Canada or the US or Togo.

All one can conclude from this hodgepodge of observations is that the auto market will continue to reflect certain aspects of human nature that we may not even be aware of ourselves, and also reflect physical, financial and security realities/rationales that will not be changed by government edict. I have no idea what that means in terms of a transition to EVs, and that trajectory could change with the development of new battery technology, for example. But at present, it should be clear, based on examples like the Ford F-150 Lightning EV experience, that human enthusiasm and professed care does not necessarily translate well into the cold hard reality of what people put their money down on.

It is a nuanced world. People are imperfect and beautifully so, it adds colour to the world. Either the landscape is more or less free, where people express themselves as they wish, or it is a closed quasi- or full-dictatorship where that is not permitted (see: censorship, over-reaching legislation, thought police/moralistic systemic governmental intervention, personal carbon budgets, etc.). The latter never succeeds because it fights human nature, and the former has elements that make no sense outside one’s own circle of people that get it. I choose not to be part of some tribes, but I probably choose to be part of others, and likely do so subconsciously, which makes the whole thing even trickier.

Current politicians and WEF-types believe they have a blueprint for humanity to unroll. It is an absurdity, if for no other reason than they can’t comprehend the complex realities of 8 billion people whom they are trying to force in a certain direction. They are trying to force them all into metaphorical minivans, because minivans make more sense than anything else. They will fail.
 
A decision to now allow gas engine charging of PHEV battery is purely political. It makes no sense otherwise.

You think it's political because you lack the technical skills to understand why it's that way even though it was explained it succinctly to you.

There is no efficiency to be gained by using the onboard engine to charge the battery. That uses more gasoline than just driving the wheels with the engine. So many of you guys fail to understand this basic premise.

The vehicle is still allowed to function as a regular hybrid so that means energy gets recovered on braking which can then be used to accelerate the vehicle.
 
The only thing that remains is seeing this tech on a vast array of vehicles besides RAV4/Prius (Which are highly love em or hate em).
I want to see this on a Camry/Accord. Honda is surprisingly (or unsurprisingly) laying low in the whole electrification thing.
And all the germans, who seem to be going in the opposite direction with all the woke.

The Clarity is a plug-in hybrid.

The "tech" you speak of is nothing more than increased battery capacity and the ability to charge this battery off the grid. Highly sophisticated stuff I know.... that "tech".
 

That’s what makes the EV ‘transition’ so fascinating. If there is one thing that is glaringly obvious in the whole topic, it is that people absolutely do not purchase ‘what they are supposed to’. You can’t make any sense out of it, because the whims and motivations come from external influences that are unpredictable. If Taylor Swift started driving a black Toyota Corolla sedan all of a sudden, what do you think would happen to black Toyota Corolla sedan sales? Not sales of grey ones though, pah! What am I, crazy? Who’d be caught dead in one of those things?

So now, particularly here in Canada but in many other jurisdictions including California, drivers are being told they will not be allowed to buy any new vehicle that isn’t EV, nor will manufacturers be allowed to sell anything that isn’t an EV.

The manufacturers are playing their part, nervously unveiling EV after EV after EV. They advertise the crap out of them, auto publications dutifully test and review them, and the media breathlessly reports how a model’s sales skyrocket by, say 33 percent, when sales go from 3 to 4 units per month.29dk2902l

The media also jumped all over stories about huge demand backlogs, how some new model about to enter showrooms has thousands and thousands of orders or deposits. In 2021, news widely circulated that “Ford F-150 Lightning pre-orders have been closed after nearly 200k reservations”, or Motor Trend’s “Ford Takes in More Than 44,500 F-150 Lightning Orders in 48 Hours”.

Think about how amazing that order book is. A mass manufacturer like Ford is so swamped with interest that they simply must grandiosely and loudly announce: “Sorry Sir or Madam, we can no longer take your order, our success is just too overwhelming.” Many manufacturers reported similar order-book hysteria.

It turns out that the story was surreal, but not quite as it sounds. Through all of 2022, Ford sold only 15,617 electric pickups. The headlines for 2022 results remain starry eyed and insipid: “Ford Tripled BEV Sales In December, Doubled In 2022”, although that couldn’t hold a candle to the infantile enthrallment saved for late 2023: “Ford F-150 Lightning breaks monthly sales record, doubling in November”.

Sales in November 2023 did indeed ‘double’ compared to the prior November, but in the entire quarter Ford sold only 11,905 units. In the two years after the hail-the-future order book bumper crop, Ford only sold about 40,000 F-150 Lightnings. In two years. Recently Ford announced a halving of 2024 production plans down to about 1,600 units per week, or just under 7,000 per month.

Keep in mind that in 2023 Ford sold over 750,000 F-150 internal combustion pickups in the US, and many of these go to urban dwellers for whom an EV pickup might make total sense – ones that rarely leave the city (EVs are in general far better suited to urban environments where they can scoot home safely to a nice warm private charging station every night).

Which brings us back to consumer behaviour again, that mystifying and surely exasperating trait of humanity that no amount of cajoling and ‘proper thinking’ will break. “Two hundred thousand reservations!” to “Slashing production forecasts!” In half. On a variant of the most popular vehicle in the US.

Tesla continues to dominate EV sales, and many people, when they decide they want an EV, mean they want a Tesla (in the pickup world, Rivian might be the Tesla of EV pickups, time will tell). Major auto manufacturers are having a very difficult time seeing EV sales grow to any level that would approach profitability.

It’s hard not to feel bad for them, if one can or should feel bad for huge corporations. How on earth does one plan for the coming year, when two hundred thousand consumers say yes, I want one of those, but then 80 percent change their mind by the time Ford can actually manufacture them?

But observe; whispering in their manufacturing ears are governments saying not subtly that “Don’t worry, we will be legislating internal combustion out of existence, just build them and they will come…” Said less loudly is the supporting evidence: “because they have no choice.” Well, it worked for a while in the Soviet Union didn’t it?

Making things even more complicated for manufacturers are upcoming elections in the US (this year) and Canada (what feels like an eternity but is really only 1.5 years) that could see either minor or major revisions to EV policy rollouts of the past few years.

But forget all the uncertainty surrounding manufacturers; that all gets trumped (no pun intended) by the human element. Here’s an important realization that we all need to accept: Some stuff just gives us a sense of belonging with others in a way that is critical to mental well being. Some people like to dress in the latest fashion. Some get the most popular hair styling. Some drive a rugged SUV because of what it says about them.

That can make manufacturers pull their hair out, because something illogical might be their biggest hit ever. But on top of that one must now layer the rancid decay of politics. EV sales seem to be falling along political fault lines, which in a way is not surprising: one side of the political spectrum sees climate change as a moral imperative to be dealt with as rapidly as possible, and that element, to the extent it can afford it, is responsible for the highest uptake of EVs (it is another sign that ‘left wing vs. right wing’ is a historical anachronism of little value any more; the traditional ‘left’ represented the working class, the downtrodden, the ones that needed a safety net; today’s main EV purchasers are wealthy enough to pursue Teslas first and foremost, often with a multi-car garage full of options). EV as political statement is yet another example of how our preferences link us to a tribe of our choice, rational or not, and it will be supra-humanly difficult to change that, whether in Canada or the US or Togo.

All one can conclude from this hodgepodge of observations is that the auto market will continue to reflect certain aspects of human nature that we may not even be aware of ourselves, and also reflect physical, financial and security realities/rationales that will not be changed by government edict. I have no idea what that means in terms of a transition to EVs, and that trajectory could change with the development of new battery technology, for example. But at present, it should be clear, based on examples like the Ford F-150 Lightning EV experience, that human enthusiasm and professed care does not necessarily translate well into the cold hard reality of what people put their money down on.

It is a nuanced world. People are imperfect and beautifully so, it adds colour to the world. Either the landscape is more or less free, where people express themselves as they wish, or it is a closed quasi- or full-dictatorship where that is not permitted (see: censorship, over-reaching legislation, thought police/moralistic systemic governmental intervention, personal carbon budgets, etc.). The latter never succeeds because it fights human nature, and the former has elements that make no sense outside one’s own circle of people that get it. I choose not to be part of some tribes, but I probably choose to be part of others, and likely do so subconsciously, which makes the whole thing even trickier.

Current politicians and WEF-types believe they have a blueprint for humanity to unroll. It is an absurdity, if for no other reason than they can’t comprehend the complex realities of 8 billion people whom they are trying to force in a certain direction. They are trying to force them all into metaphorical minivans, because minivans make more sense than anything else. They will fail.

Blah blah blah blah.
 
The Rav4 Prime does it as well with a mode selection to recharge batteries . ReGen braking works better in stop - go traffic for obvious reasons. 🤣😀

The RAV4 prime does NOT allow the engine to fully recharge the battery. That would be stupid and waste fuel.
 
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