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EG4 6000XP wiring to Reliance Pro Tran 2 transfer switch

Bryon

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I have a Reliance Pro/2 transfer switch wired to my service panel that I want to connect to a EG4 6000XP. The neutral wire and ground wire from the transfer switch are connected to the neutral and ground bar in the service panel. The transfer switch uses a L14-30 plug. My question is when wiring from the transfer switch to the load ac output to send power to the transfer switch do I connect the neutral wire to the neutral bus bar on the EG4 6000XP and the ground wire to the PE bar on the EG4 6000XP. The directions for the transfer switch say " For connection of a nonseparately derived (floating neutral) system only.Load wiring.PNG20231108_113042.jpg20231109_114708.jpg
 
The 6000XP is a common neutral architecture that does not normally have an internal neutral Ground bond. (There is a setting that tells the inverter to create an NG bond, but you should leave that disabled)

In other words, the neutral in and neutral out are the exact same circuit and are never disconnected. Most importantly for this discussion, it is a "nonseperately derived system"

The Protrans is typically wired up like this:
1699599754289.png

Notice that it does not have the neutral or the ground going from the inverter to the reliance. The fact that it is a common neutral system allows this and wiring it like this prevents loops in both ground and neutral
 
The 6000XP is a common neutral architecture that does not normally have an internal neutral Ground bond. (There is a setting that tells the inverter to create an NG bond, but you should leave that disabled)

In other words, the neutral in and neutral out are the exact same circuit and are never disconnected. Most importantly for this discussion, it is a "nonseperately derived system"

The Protrans is typically wired up like this:
View attachment 176964

Notice that it does not have the neutral or the ground going from the inverter to the reliance. The fact that it is a common neutral system allows this and wiring it like this prevents loops in both ground and neutral
 
Thank you for the wiring diagram. One question I have about the diagram as far as the Reliance Pro/2 wiring to the main panel is that it does not show a neutral wire connected to the main panel.
The instructions I have for the Reliance Pro Tran/2 show the neutral wire from the transfer switch connected to the neutral bar of the main panel.
 
The 6000XP is a common neutral architecture that does not normally have an internal neutral Ground bond. (There is a setting that tells the inverter to create an NG bond, but you should leave that disabled)

In other words, the neutral in and neutral out are the exact same circuit and are never disconnected. Most importantly for this discussion, it is a "nonseperately derived system"

The Protrans is typically wired up like this:
View attachment 176964

Notice that it does not have the neutral or the ground going from the inverter to the reliance. The fact that it is a common neutral system allows this and wiring it like this prevents loops in both ground and neutral
@FilterGuy assumes the 6000XP is always hardwired and never has the neutral disconnected….never-ever, correct? When on ‘GEN’ is the utility transformer making the neutral then or its derived from the 6000XP?
 
@FilterGuy assumes the 6000XP is always hardwired and never has the neutral disconnected….never-ever, correct?
Correct.

When on ‘GEN’ is the utility transformer making the neutral then?
I am not sure what the question is asking. When on Gen, the neutral is through the main panel. See the purple dashed line below.
1699639431862.png
Notice that an inverter that has an AC input and an AC output is different than a generator that only has an AC output. Since it is a common neutral inverter, the neutral only has to be connected once. If you connect it multiple times if forms loops that can create RFI issues.

An alternative way to wire it would be like this:

1699639906075.png

It is allowable to connect both input and output neutrals, but I would avoid it for RFI reasons.
 
Correct.


I am not sure what the question is asking. When on Gen, the neutral is through the main panel. See the purple dashed line below.
View attachment 177013
Notice that an inverter that has an AC input and an AC output is different than a generator that only has an AC output. Since it is a common neutral inverter, the neutral only has to be connected once. If you connect it multiple times if forms loops that can create RFI issues.

An alternative way to wire it would be like this:

View attachment 177023

It is allowable to connect both input and output neutrals, but I would avoid it for RFI reasons.
Totally understand now. Thank you @FilterGuy. The OP did have a question about the Reliance to Main Panel neutral. Should that be connected?
 
The OP did have a question about the Reliance to Main Panel neutral. Should that be connected?
Take a look at the second diagram above. It is only needed if there is no neutral from the main panel to the AC in of the inverter.
 
View attachment 177013
Notice that an inverter that has an AC input and an AC output is different than a generator that only has an AC output. Since it is a common neutral inverter, the neutral only has to be connected once. If you connect it multiple times if forms loops that can create RFI issues.

It is allowable to connect both input and output neutrals, but I would avoid it for RFI reasons.

thank you for posting this, I have a 6000XP incoming and this is exactly what I'm looking to do with my Reliance 310.

Follow-up question: Do you think it's a good idea to swap the 50A AC out breaker in the 6000XP with a 30A for this particular scenario? The 310 is rated for 30A input with 10AWG L1/L2 internal wiring. Was also thinking of keeping my existing 10AWG inverter -> transfer switch wiring in place for the same reason (serving 2 x EG4 3000s -> A310 today). Main panel to Inverter AC in (and the only neutral) would still be 8/3.

thanks!
 
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thank you for posting this, I have a 6000XP incoming and this is exactly what I'm looking to do with my Reliance 310.

Follow-up question: Do you think it's a good idea to swap the 50A AC out breaker in the 6000XP with a 30A for this particular scenario? The 310 is rated for 30A input with 10AWG L1/L2 internal wiring. Was also thinking of keeping my existing 10AWG inverter -> transfer switch wiring in place for the same reason (serving 2 x EG4 3000s -> A310 today). Main panel to Inverter AC in (and the only neutral) would still be 8/3.

thanks!

I'm still learning as well....so please take my answer with a grain of salt.

But in the spirit of sparking discussion and a proper answer from some of the more knowledgeable members:

I believe the answer would be to leave the 6000xp 50A breaker installed as is and to install an external 30A inline breaker between the 6000xp load output and the 310 input.

This would just simply be easier and also leaves you the option of future expansion/upgrades.
 
I'm still learning as well....so please take my answer with a grain of salt.

But in the spirit of sparking discussion and a proper answer from some of the more knowledgeable members:

I believe the answer would be to leave the 6000xp 50A breaker installed as is and to install an external 30A inline breaker between the 6000xp load output and the 310 input.

This would just simply be easier and also leaves you the option of future expansion/upgrades.

I don't believe there's a need to downsize the AC Out breaker for connection to a 30A reliance...Here's something interesting I found in an electrical forum and subsequently confirmed with Reliance... (not sure if I can post direct links here, would be happy to)

All load wires on both the 30A (310) Pro/Tran2 and the 50A (510) Pro/Tran2 are the same (10AWG) gauge! Only neutral gauge differs between the models and it doesn't matter as in @FilterGuy 's 1st diagram above neutral flows only between main panel and the inverter to avoid loops.
 
IMG_3533.jpeg

AC Bypass (Grid) is 50A.
Wouldn’t this create issues for the 10awg Trasnfer Switch wiring?
 
View attachment 184009

AC Bypass (Grid) is 50A.
Wouldn’t this create issues for the 10awg Trasnfer Switch wiring?
Edit: you mean from the TS input to the bus bars inside the TS? Maybe because of the very short run from TS Input to load bus bar but think 6awg should be required.

Edit again: The 310c only has 10awg for inverter or generator connection. The 510c uses 6awg. If connecting output from 6000xp to a TS, I would ONLY use a 510 series if doing pass through.
 

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Edit: you mean from the TS input to the bus bars inside the TS? Maybe because of the very short run from TS Input to load bus bar but think 6awg should be required.

Edit again: The 310c only has 10awg for inverter or generator connection. The 510c uses 6awg. If connecting output from 6000xp to a TS, I would ONLY use a 510 series if doing pass through.

Nope, the 510 uses 10AWG for all load wires inside the TS, including the L1/L2 gen input, and 8AWG for neutral (pass-through to the gen connection) although it calls for 6AWG connections to the TS.

I did a double take too when I saw that initially, hence the call to Reliance. That's my sample of 1 and vendor support is not always 100% correct so it'd be great if someone else can confirm too!

edit: found this response from Reliance to another customer:

"Hello, thank you for the inquiry and interest in our products!
Yes the 50 amp prewired transfer switches like 510C, use 10 gauge wire (90 degree rated insulation) for the short wires that connect to the internal bus bar of the transfer switch.
Electrical contractors are not always in the right, and here is a perfect example. It's unfortunate that wire gauges alone are perceived as being the end-all for ampacity ratings, as it's certainly not the case if one references the National Electrical Code wire ratings. (attached)
Even though the wire we use is actually rated for 40 amps per the NEC table, it really doesn't matter. The factory wiring internal to a control box like this is not subject to general building wire, because it's not. It's a certified product by the testing lab Underwriter's Laboratories Inc. (UL) and whatever wires will pass the heat-rise testing per the national standard for transfer equipment (UL 1008), can be used no matter what the NEC might declare their ampacities are for general use.
In fact if we could pass the stringent heat rise testing with smaller wire, we would use smaller wire. The point is that wires (and along with better insulation) can handle a lot more power than what the NEC will allow for general use, as they force wiring to be overrated in most all general wiring applications. It's quite common that contractors that were taught about wire ratings simply define 12 gauge as 20 amps, 10 gauge as 30 amps, 8 gauge as 40 amps, and 6 gauge as 50 amps, but that is most definitely incorrect. If the wiring was general use (not in a factory built electrical panel), they would have a point and could say that the 40 amp rated wire we use isn't large enough, but that doesn't apply to this scenario. Hope this helps, please let me know if there are any questions, thanks."
 
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Nope, the 510 uses 10AWG for all load wires inside the TS, including the L1/L2 gen input, and 8AWG for neutral (pass-through to the gen connection) although it calls for 6AWG connections to the TS.

I did a double take too when I saw that initially, hence the call to Reliance. That's my sample of 1 and vendor support is not always 100% correct so it'd be great if someone else can confirm too!

edit: found this response from Reliance to another customer:

"Hello, thank you for the inquiry and interest in our products!
Yes the 50 amp prewired transfer switches like 510C, use 10 gauge wire (90 degree rated insulation) for the short wires that connect to the internal bus bar of the transfer switch.
Electrical contractors are not always in the right, and here is a perfect example. It's unfortunate that wire gauges alone are perceived as being the end-all for ampacity ratings, as it's certainly not the case if one references the National Electrical Code wire ratings. (attached)
Even though the wire we use is actually rated for 40 amps per the NEC table, it really doesn't matter. The factory wiring internal to a control box like this is not subject to general building wire, because it's not. It's a certified product by the testing lab Underwriter's Laboratories Inc. (UL) and whatever wires will pass the heat-rise testing per the national standard for transfer equipment (UL 1008), can be used no matter what the NEC might declare their ampacities are for general use.
In fact if we could pass the stringent heat rise testing with smaller wire, we would use smaller wire. The point is that wires (and along with better insulation) can handle a lot more power than what the NEC will allow for general use, as they force wiring to be overrated in most all general wiring applications. It's quite common that contractors that were taught about wire ratings simply define 12 gauge as 20 amps, 10 gauge as 30 amps, 8 gauge as 40 amps, and 6 gauge as 50 amps, but that is most definitely incorrect. If the wiring was general use (not in a factory built electrical panel), they would have a point and could say that the 40 amp rated wire we use isn't large enough, but that doesn't apply to this scenario. Hope this helps, please let me know if there are any questions, thanks."
Well Damn, you're right all 10awg, neutral is larger on 50amp version. Here is a discussion about in the forum. Looks like there was a video of someone replacing with 6awg but it's not available any longer. Searched some other links as well and apparently house wiring gauge does not apply within devices ???. Anyway, it passed UL.

Weird paste but here is the link: #4 Protran 510c
 
The 6000XP is a common neutral architecture that does not normally have an internal neutral Ground bond. (There is a setting that tells the inverter to create an NG bond, but you should leave that disabled)

In other words, the neutral in and neutral out are the exact same circuit and are never disconnected. Most importantly for this discussion, it is a "nonseperately derived system"

The Protrans is typically wired up like this:
View attachment 176964

Notice that it does not have the neutral or the ground going from the inverter to the reliance. The fact that it is a common neutral system allows this and wiring it like this prevents loops in both ground and neutral
In the Protran 2 manual it looks like when in the line position the branch circuits are protected by the breaker in the load center and when in the Gen position the breakers in the transfer box, protects the branch circuits. In this drawing above it looks like current would pass through both circuit breakers (in series) if switched to the On (line) position.
Is my understanding correct?
 
In the Protran 2 manual it looks like when in the line position the branch circuits are protected by the breaker in the load center and when in the Gen position the breakers in the transfer box, protects the branch circuits. In this drawing above it looks like current would pass through both circuit breakers (in series) if switched to the On (line) position.
Is my understanding correct?
I don’t think so, but I have one that I haven’t installed yet. I’ll try and confirm how it’s wired internally a bit later today.
 
In the Protran 2 manual it looks like when in the line position the branch circuits are protected by the breaker in the load center and when in the Gen position the breakers in the transfer box, protects the branch circuits. In this drawing above it looks like current would pass through both circuit breakers (in series) if switched to the On (line) position.
Is my understanding correct?
It does not pass through both. One or the other. Also note if you use GFCI breakers in main panel they will trip when you flip from line to gen because of the ground imbalance and you can’t turn them back on in main panel or they will continue to trip until you go from gen to line.
 
Found this, a potential Protran 2 GFCI breaker solution authored by filterguy.
 

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