diy solar

diy solar

Transfer Switch or subpanel?

JAS

Solar Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
512
Hi All,

Getting ready to purchase an EG4 6000XP & PowerPro Battery. Trying to decide between a 10 circuit Pro-Tran style manual transfer switch vs. a subpanel (with a manual transfer switch back to main feed) like the Reliance TRK0505DR

I like the idea of the Pro-Tran style since I can switch circuits individually between grid and Inverter. It is also easy to find barely used ones for between $100 - $200. However, that style seems to be advertised as "temporary" backup. Is it safe to utilize these in almost 100% "Gen" mode?

Thanks,

Jeff
 
Hi All,

Getting ready to purchase an EG4 6000XP & PowerPro Battery. Trying to decide between a 10 circuit Pro-Tran style manual transfer switch vs. a subpanel (with a manual transfer switch back to main feed) like the Reliance TRK0505DR

I like the idea of the Pro-Tran style since I can switch circuits individually between grid and Inverter. It is also easy to find barely used ones for between $100 - $200. However, that style seems to be advertised as "temporary" backup. Is it safe to utilize these in almost 100% "Gen" mode?

Thanks,

Jeff
Either can work just fine. I think it comes down to your preference and ease of installation.

One minor advantage of the protran is that you can select individual circuits to transfer. I would not use that feature much.... but others might. The other 'advantage' of the protran is that you can turn circuits completely off and not power from either the grid or the inverter. I am not sure how I would ever use that feature, but it is there.

However, that style seems to be advertised as "temporary" backup. Is it safe to utilize these in almost 100% "Gen" mode?
Interesting question. I had never even considered it. I don't think there is any issue with running continuously in gen mode. The components on the 'Gen' path of the circuit all have the same ratings as the 'grid' path.
 
Decide if you need to transfer AFCI/GFCI circuit.
The Reliance doesn't appear to support that because it switches only L1 or L1/L2, not N.
(I think it might be possible to rewire a DPDT switch meant for L1/L2 to switch L1/N)
 
The Reliance doesn't appear to support that because it switches only L1 or L1/L2, not N
Actually it does support it.... but it is a bit convoluted.


It is convoluted enough that if GFCI/AFCI is needed, I would opt for a breaker box over the Protran.
 
I fail to see the advantage of this reliance thingy. You can buy a 24 position 100A Homelife panel for under $150 brand new. Hang it and move critical loads as you see fit. You don't even need a transfer switch the EG4 will handle the grid switching to the panel.
 
Good feedback!

I don't currently have any GFCI/AFCI breakers in my main panel. Just GFCI receptacles were code required (at the time our house was built). I guess I'll talk with my electrician to see if he thinks there would ever be a need to support that...

The ProTran "may" be easier to install since it doesn't require moving circuits. However, the bundle of wires feeding between the two would be about the same either way (except that the ProTran comes with the pigtail wiring and I'd have to supply the wiring for a separate load panel). I guess I'm still leaning toward the ProTran.

Since I'm not 100% sure I can run my fridge, freezer, & 240 deep well pump together on (1) 6000XP, I thought it would be beneficial to be able to flip the well between grid and inverter ("gen")
 
I fail to see the advantage of this reliance thingy. You can buy a 24 position 100A Homelife panel for under $150 brand new. Hang it and move critical loads as you see fit.
If you decide a transfer switch is needed, the protran combines the breaker panel and the xfer switch function. As I said earlier, some would find it useful to select individual circuits to transfer, but I would not find that useful.

There is a slight benifit in that the way it is intended to be wired is to leave the circuits in the original breaker box and extend them over to the Protran. (And you only have to extend the hots). In the grand scheme of things, this sounds good but I am not sure it is that big of a benefit.
 
One benefit would be if you wanted to charge your battery up as a storm is coming you can easily dump your some or all. of your loads back to the grid, so your battery can charge higher with solar.
 
One benefit would be if you wanted to charge your battery up as a storm is coming you can easily dump your some or all. of your loads back to the grid, so your battery can charge higher with solar.
Some loads maybe, but can't you just turn off inverter output on the EG4 and let it bypass the grid inputs for everything? I actually played this game for a bit, it's really not worth the effort, unless you just like to play. ROI is terrible. ROE(ffort) is abysmal. I set up my sub-panel a year before I put in solar. I ran/run it thru a 100A Chinese ATS with a 100A breaker from the grid panel, then just took my time moving a few things over, and added a bunch of current sensors.

I jacked the first set of inverters I had into the ATS primary, they were abysmal, but non-disruptive when they shut down because of the ATS. When I got the EG4/1812 units I just tied them in the same way, but they have a built-in ATS, and looking at the manual the 6000's seem to do the same without the grid-tie feature. Had this unit been available at the start I would probably have 4 of them instead of 2 1812's, and I might have moved the wires from the ATS to the 6000 AC bus connections, although the OOB ATS gives me a bit more flexibility, like, just manually flip it if I want to goof with my inverters.

I've found that in the winter my TOU rates are not significant enough to bother with trying load shifting, simply because of the losses associated with charging the battery and then discharging the battery to drive the load make it close to a push. In the summer it would be worth it, except it's not relevant because TOU here is when the sun is the most brutal, so the idea never comes up.

I do have a separate bypass/ATS for my EV charging pedestal. I also have several ATS spares, they are pretty inexpensive, and being DIN mounted with lugs pretty quick to replace. I had one 60A one that died, refused to switch.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you have a lot more scalability with a fresh 100A panel, and I doubt I would ever be shuffling 10 different loads back and forth unless I actually was trying to optimize output from an actual generator because the grid was down. YMMV
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is you have a lot more scalability with a fresh 100A panel, and I doubt I would ever be shuffling 10 different loads back and forth unless I actually was trying to optimize output from an actual generator because the grid was down. YMMV

The more I think about it it's still irrelevant. If the grid is down I can just flip breakers in the sub-panel. If I want to charge batteries for the inverter, I don't see a ton of benefit in switching a portion of the load back to the grid. If it's manual in the first place, just turn the inverter off and flip all the loads until the batteries are charged or whatever. If you have something specific that is a big load, like a HWH or Well pump, put it behind an ATS, sub-panel primary, just kick the breaker on the sub-panel to force it to the grid. In theory all this stuff looks cool, but in practice most people want to flip the switch and have the lights turn on every time.
 
You can buy a 24 position 100A Homelife panel for under $150 brand new.
So how would I (or my wife in my absence) revert to grid when the Inverter takes a sh$t? (Murphy's Law). The only way I know would be either also wire in a transfer switch (more money and more wall space) or start pulling circuits out and putting them back in the main panel (what a PITA). The Reliance subpanel I linked in the beginning does have a transfer switch built in. But, it is between $450-$500 and would not allow me to selectively move circuits from the Inverter to the grid.

I should have also mentioned... Due to location of where I am mounting the Inverter and distance from the main panel, I will not be feeding the 6000XP with AC in from the Grid. Therefore, I need an easy way for us to flip back to grid.

Side note: If I were feeding the AC In of the 6000XP from the main panel, I would not be able to use the ProTran. (It would cause weird neutral/ground loop) and then the subpanel/critical load panel option would be the only safe option.
 
I just have an interlocked "Generator" breaker in my subpanels. Costs about $50 for the interlock and $40 to $100 for the breaker depending on amperage. Grid feeds main breaker, and inverter feeds generator breaker.


Neutral loop? Ground loop? Not sure there is any problem. I just want a neutral wire and a ground wire from load back to source through same conduit as line. If alternate paths go through different conduit, then I'll make a loop. I don't care, AC current wants to use the closest return path. But my conduit configurations have generally avoided that.
 
So how would I (or my wife in my absence) revert to grid when the Inverter takes a sh$t? (Murphy's Law). The only way I know would be either also wire in a transfer switch (more money and more wall space) or start pulling circuits out and putting them back in the main panel (what a PITA). The Reliance subpanel I linked in the beginning does have a transfer switch built in. But, it is between $450-$500 and would not allow me to selectively move circuits from the Inverter to the grid.

I should have also mentioned... Due to location of where I am mounting the Inverter and distance from the main panel, I will not be feeding the 6000XP with AC in from the Grid. Therefore, I need an easy way for us to flip back to grid.

Side note: If I were feeding the AC In of the 6000XP from the main panel, I would not be able to use the ProTran. (It would cause weird neutral/ground loop) and then the subpanel/critical load panel option would be the only safe option.

Well, no way in hell the little woman here is going to be flipping breakers so I'd go with an ATS for the whole panel if you are afraid of the inverter being an issue (Umm like me). I mounted mine on a DIN rail, left ATS is the EV pedestal, right feeds the panel, top is to the inverters, bottom from the grid, bottom back is the panel feed, all #2. 220v relay ATS was like $60, I have the panel ATS configured with the primary and secondary relays on a straight jumper. The pedestal ATS (EV Charging), the primary is being fed by a control computer, the secondary is tied direct, thus I can software control the source. Mounted it in a 12x12, #2 wire is a pain, panel feed wires (low on the right) are on crimp lugs.
1705295827101.png

It does eat a bit of real estate on the wall, but the switching is 100% seamless. If the inverters stop putting out it just clicks over by magic. These are rotary switches inside, I had a smaller 2-pole one die, and if I re-do it, I'll add in ground on the 4th terminal, to allow me move N-G bonding into the panel on the left if I want to isolate. Thus far I've found this brand of switches to be reliable, but I have TWO spares just in case that Murphy fellow decides to stop by. The two pole that died was a different brand almost identical, with the connections on the right instead of the left, Using it for other override switching to the secondary EV charger in the garage.

I slowly moved EVERYTHING into this panel. It's very full, but at least for me having to manually carry my *ss over and do anything means Murphy is going to make me do just that at the most in-opportune time. So for <$250 worth of wire, switches, a box, and a 100A breaker for my main panel, I can get to it at my convenience. Further, at least for me, it also means I can just let the grid magically pick up the slack when there isn't enough output available from the solar. If the ATS relay fails, or for other maintenance, you can kick the black switch to manual and flip the red knob. During the awful solar days I had in late September, I just shut down the inverter output, and used all the PV to charge batteries for a day and a half. I never had to lift my butt out of the chair . . .

1705297957666.pngJust clicked the button.
It just seems to me it's so much simpler just to have a regular old panel, and I still don't see a ton of usefulness with 10 manually activated relay's. I have three more of these ATS's (lower amp) in cheap plastic DIN boxes connected to my oven/range, HWH, and alternate EV, all controllable from a PC, but after about a year, I've discovered, I don't even need it I was afraid 100A was not going to be enough, but I've realized the only loads I have that I'm ever going to want to bypass is EV charging, and the GF is going to run the washer and dryer whenever she feels like it as often as she wants. If she has to flip breakers or calculate loads, I failed in my design.
 
Well, no way in hell the little woman here is going to be flipping breakers so I'd go with an ATS for the whole panel if you are afraid of the inverter being an issue (Umm like me). I mounted mine on a DIN rail, left ATS is the EV pedestal, right feeds the panel, top is to the inverters, bottom from the grid, bottom back is the panel feed, all #2. 220v relay ATS was like $60, I have the panel ATS configured with the primary and secondary relays on a straight jumper. The pedestal ATS (EV Charging), the primary is being fed by a control computer, the secondary is tied direct, thus I can software control the source. Mounted it in a 12x12, #2 wire is a pain, panel feed wires (low on the right) are on crimp lugs.
View attachment 189030

It does eat a bit of real estate on the wall, but the switching is 100% seamless. If the inverters stop putting out it just clicks over by magic. These are rotary switches inside, I had a smaller 2-pole one die, and if I re-do it, I'll add in ground on the 4th terminal, to allow me move N-G bonding into the panel on the left if I want to isolate. Thus far I've found this brand of switches to be reliable, but I have TWO spares just in case that Murphy fellow decides to stop by. The two pole that died was a different brand almost identical, with the connections on the right instead of the left, Using it for other override switching to the secondary EV charger in the garage.

I slowly moved EVERYTHING into this panel. It's very full, but at least for me having to manually carry my *ss over and do anything means Murphy is going to make me do just that at the most in-opportune time. So for <$250 worth of wire, switches, a box, and a 100A breaker for my main panel, I can get to it at my convenience. Further, at least for me, it also means I can just let the grid magically pick up the slack when there isn't enough output available from the solar. If the ATS relay fails, or for other maintenance, you can kick the black switch to manual and flip the red knob. During the awful solar days I had in late September, I just shut down the inverter output, and used all the PV to charge batteries for a day and a half. I never had to lift my butt out of the chair . . .

View attachment 189035Just clicked the button.
It just seems to me it's so much simpler just to have a regular old panel, and I still don't see a ton of usefulness with 10 manually activated relay's. I have three more of these ATS's (lower amp) in cheap plastic DIN boxes connected to my oven/range, HWH, and alternate EV, all controllable from a PC, but after about a year, I've discovered, I don't even need it I was afraid 100A was not going to be enough, but I've realized the only loads I have that I'm ever going to want to bypass is EV charging, and the GF is going to run the washer and dryer whenever she feels like it as often as she wants. If she has to flip breakers or calculate loads, I failed in my design.
Or just build a big enough system you don't have to worry about any of this crap....
 
The grid isn't a big enough system, and we have to worry about this crap.
 
The Reliance never made any sense to me. It is much easier and might even be cheaper to install a 100A subpanel with a 100A transfer switch.

Here is 100A from Home Depot. https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-100-...ency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10323R/100171587

Any person who doesn't understand electrical systems will find it much easier to flip the lever over than be playing with breakers. So easy even a caveman could do it.

 
  • Haha
Reactions: JAS
Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Yes, I thought about this last night as I was going to sleep and realized I could do an interlock in the separate critical loads panel for much less expensive than the Reliance panel with the transfer switch built-in.

The whole ATS has me concerned over having one more moving part to fail at the most inopportune time. And those cheaper ones are most likely not UL listed.

However, I'm back to the concern over how many circuits to move into this critical loads panel until it is too much for (1) 6000XP. Just imagining the perfect storm of the fridge inrush, freezer inrush, and well pump kicking on all at the exact same time. That alone could be 6500-7000 watts. Albeit for a brief second. Don't know if the 6000XP can handle that with an additional couple hundred watts of lights, internet, etc. already on...

Yes, I know the easy fix is to start out with (2) 6000XPs in parallel. But, was hoping to ease into this (money wise). And selectively being able to switch circuits would allow that...

My other thought was the new Samlex EVO 4248SP. It's also split-phase and since it is a LF inverter, it has great surge specs. This would cost about $800 less than (2) 6000XPs. And reliability/longevity is expected to be much greater... :unsure:
 
Well... I guess this is the official answer from the horse's mouth...

I had contacted Reliance Controls and asked them about using the ProTran permanently in "Gen" mode:

Here is their response:

The ProTran/2 is designed for Generator or Inverter power as a back-up. Not as a main source. It is designed to use a generator or inverter as temporary power.

https://reliancecontrols.com/video-tutorials



I would recommend not using the Transfer Switch but a Transfer Panel like the TRK1003C as a better alternative.

https://reliancecontrols.com/search-result/trk1003c
 
Back
Top