I'm setting up a solar system and will power a 100 amp residential service panel through a transfer switch. I'm looking for the right 24v DC inverter (about 3000 watt pure sine wave) for this application. The output needs to be capable of being hardwired. Doesn't seem to be a lot of choices out there.
recommened 24c DC to 240v AC
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FilterGuy
Solar Engineering Consultant - EG4 and Consumers
Welcome Skip.
The thread title says 240V Are you in North America (240V split phase) or elsewhere (240V single phase).
For split phase you will probably have to stack 2 inverters (several of @Will Prowse videos show how to do this)
The thread title says 240V Are you in North America (240V split phase) or elsewhere (240V single phase).
For split phase you will probably have to stack 2 inverters (several of @Will Prowse videos show how to do this)
schmism
Solar Addict
are you EU (240v single phase) or US (240v split phase)?
3K watt does not seem well matched for a 100amp service. Granted if all you use is a few lights perhaps, however if the person is used to not fussing over how much power they are useing, 3Kw will likely be annoyingly low.
All in one inverters such as Growatt offer 24v 3Kw inverters that can paralleled to supply split phase power. They are designed for hardwired connections (they don't have 110v outlets on them)
3K watt does not seem well matched for a 100amp service. Granted if all you use is a few lights perhaps, however if the person is used to not fussing over how much power they are useing, 3Kw will likely be annoyingly low.
All in one inverters such as Growatt offer 24v 3Kw inverters that can paralleled to supply split phase power. They are designed for hardwired connections (they don't have 110v outlets on them)
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
Here are at least three brand-names that produce split-phase 240VAC. The first one I listed is 24V, but in general 240V is designated for high power applications, so most of the choices are 48V. I myself have the Schneider 6848 that I use to power my 240V wellpump. I also have the 24V Conext, though I'm not powering 240V items with it.
Look at the brands first. Then dive into each brand to look at individual models. There are multiple choices. Most of them are designed be used singlely, or to be wired in parallel, so multiple units can increase capacity even higher.
ressupply.com
ressupply.com
ressupply.com
ressupply.com
ressupply.com
Look at the brands first. Then dive into each brand to look at individual models. There are multiple choices. Most of them are designed be used singlely, or to be wired in parallel, so multiple units can increase capacity even higher.
Schneider Electric Conext SW4024-120/240 Inverter/Charger - RES Supply
Free Shipping! Schneider Electric Conext SW4024-120/240 Inverter/Charger, 4000W, 120/240VAC, 50/60Hz, 30A Transfer, 24VDC, 90A Charger, RNW8654024
ressupply.com
Schneider Electric Conext XW+6848 NA Inverter/Charger - RES Supply
Low Flat Rate Freight! Schneider Electric Conext XW+6848 NA Inverter/Charger, 6800W, 120/240VAC, 50/60Hz, 60A Transfer, 48VDC, Sinewave, 140A PFC Charger, With BTS, 865-6848-01, RNW865684801
ressupply.com
OutBack GS8048A-01 Radian Inverter/Charger - RES Supply
Low Flat Rate Shipping! OutBack GS8048A-01 Radian Inverter/Charger, 8000W, 120/240VAC, 60Hz(50Hz), 50A Transfer, 48VDC, Sinewave, 115A Charger, with BTS, Dual AC Inputs, ABC, GridZero Technology, UL1741-SA, Powered Coated Finish
ressupply.com
Schneider Electric Conext SW4048-120/240 Inverter/Charger - RES Supply
Free Shipping! Schneider Electric Conext SW4048-120/240 Inverter/Charger, 4000W, 120/240VAC, 50/60Hz, 30A Transfer, 48VDC, 45A Charger, RNW8654048
ressupply.com
Magnum Energy MS4448PAE Sinewave Parallel Inverter - RES Supply
Free Shipping! Magnum Energy MS4448PAE Sinewave Parallel Inverter, 4400W, 48V, 60Amp PFC Charger, 120V/240V, 60Hz
ressupply.com
Thanks for the chance to clarify. I'm in North America. A standard 100 amp service panel is designed for 240 input - split phase - so that each side of the panel is 120. This allows for an appliance or pump breaker spanning both sides to deliver 240 to a device. Not that I want to, since I'm building to be power stingy, but I like symmetry and want to energize both sides of the panel in a way that meets local electrical codes.
I asked one vendor about using two inverters to energize the two sides of the panel. The answer I got is that this could potentially cause damage and would likely violate electrical code.
My generator outputs 240 split phase and I feel like my inverter should do the same for being hardwired to the house electrical system.
There's no reason why a 3000 watt inverter and 1200 watts of solar can't power a small house if major energy consumers use propane/wood and lights are all LED. We get spoiled on "unlimited" grid power and have been trained to waste electricity.
SolarQueen
Making renewable do-able at www.alteStore.com
Are you looking for an off-grid inverter that could potentially take AC in from the grid but not sell any excess back, or a hybrid that can sell back if any excess is available?
Off-grid - I'd say Magnum MSPAE-4024 https://www.altestore.com/store/inv...gy-mspae4024-4000w-24v-invertercharger-p8209/
or
Schneider SW4024 https://www.altestore.com/store/inv...next-sw-inverterchargers-p40463/#SCNCONSW4024
Hybrid - Two Outback VFXR 2524 inverters (they are designed to sync and be stacked for 240 split - https://www.altestore.com/store/inv...series-inverter-chargers-p40835/#OUTFXR2524A1
Off-grid - I'd say Magnum MSPAE-4024 https://www.altestore.com/store/inv...gy-mspae4024-4000w-24v-invertercharger-p8209/
or
Schneider SW4024 https://www.altestore.com/store/inv...next-sw-inverterchargers-p40463/#SCNCONSW4024
Hybrid - Two Outback VFXR 2524 inverters (they are designed to sync and be stacked for 240 split - https://www.altestore.com/store/inv...series-inverter-chargers-p40835/#OUTFXR2524A1
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Just buy the ConextSW4024 and you are good to go. It's designed to be hard-wired directly to a standard split-phase American panel, accepts 240V generator support, and it can also be connected to the grid, and you can toggle between the grid and your solar system by flipping the breakers.
schmism
Solar Addict
Your absolutely correct, however a frequent request seen on the forums is my XXX sized system wont power up my ____. Typically these are heavy inductive loads (like motor starts). Having sufficient overhead for load starts should be considered. Many of the name brand (expensive) inverters are also low frequency inverters with heavy transformers that do handle heavy motor starts better.
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
Schmism makes a very good point. There are lots of pen and paper designers out there that whip up a system plan based on the companies "promotional numbers". You learn the hard way that what they say they can do and what they actually can do are two very different things! You won't know till you flip the "on" switch to separate the hype from the facts. For my own systems I've adhered religously to the 2-3X rule. That being if you know you need 3000W, you better have the capacity to produce 6000W. If you calculate you need 1200W of panels, you better install 2400W. Stick to that you you will NOT be disappointed!
FilterGuy
Solar Engineering Consultant - EG4 and Consumers
If you just hook a separate inverter to either side of the breaker box then this is correct. However, as several have pointed out, there are split-phase inverters available. Also, many of the single phase inverters are designed with a communication cable that allows you to use two inverters to create a true split phase with 180deg shift in phases. Whoever you were talking to is not very well versed in solar and inverters. Since he did not explain all this to you, I would not go to them for advice on your set-up.
The key words are "small house". I power a very small hunting cabin with a 2500W inverter... no problem. However, It is all LED, there is no Air Conditioner, LP refrigerator LP stove LP hot water heater and a wood burning stove for heat. Furthermore, we are careful about our power usage. This is fine for a hunting cabin but I would not want to live full time with the restrictions.
Have you done an energy audit on your needs. If not, you should. There are many online tools for this or you can use this resource:
https://diysolarforum.com/resources/system-energy-audit-and-sizing-spread-sheet.12/
True that! However, I also agree with folks that say if you build for more than you think you need you won't regret it. The last thing you want is a significant-other that is upset when they can't use the hair drier and curling iron at the same time as the Mr Coffee is brewing.
SolarQueen
Making renewable do-able at www.alteStore.com
So true. I remember a customer exchanging an inverter for a bigger one when his wife told her she couldn't run her hair dryer with it. Ironically, I resold it later that day to a theme park that needed it to power their Batmobile in a parade. So her hairdryer saved Batman!
Any opinions about the SunGoldPower brand? This unit will do everything (it claims) at a killer price: https://sungoldpower.com/collection...ne-wave-inverter-with-charger#specification_1
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
Is it UL listed?
I've looked at the manuals for the Schneider, Outback and Magnum units listed above and what I don't understand is why the need for an "inverter load panel"? I want my main service panel to be the inverter load panel and forget about the Grid source. I'm not paying the $5000+ to extend grid power to the house and then forever monthly bills. I want the generator back-up to be my second source power coming in to the inverter.
Can I wire any of these so the my split phase 240 (three conductor plus ground) wire from the generator comes into the inverter/charge controller/transfer switch and then the same three conductor plus ground goes out from the inverter to the service panel? I guess I'm not understanding what the transfer switch does in these units. Does it not switch from battery supplied power to generator supplied power?
Can I wire any of these so the my split phase 240 (three conductor plus ground) wire from the generator comes into the inverter/charge controller/transfer switch and then the same three conductor plus ground goes out from the inverter to the service panel? I guess I'm not understanding what the transfer switch does in these units. Does it not switch from battery supplied power to generator supplied power?
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a inverter load panel? I have two Schneiders, and I haven't found the words "inverter load panel" anywhere. Are you thinking of a power center like this?
https://ressupply.com/power-panels/midnite-solar-mndc250plus-mini-dc-disconnect-box
This box mounts under/on the side of the inverter, and holds all the breakers and wiring for the transition from DC to AC. Alternatively, is one of the vendors using the phrase :"inverter load panel" interchangeably with "main house panel"?
[/QUOTE]
Sure! Though not exactly in the way you describe. My inverters (a XW+ and a Conext) both have "AC in" and "AC out" connections. The "AC out" connections are hard-wired directly to the main house panel. There are two sets of "AC in" connections, one for generator support, and one for the grid. These inverters are designed as hybrids, that can act as either stand alone "off-grid" units, but also as a "grid-tie" unit. They are programable as to when electricity either feeds the grid, or charges the batteries.
The different AC inputs must always be kept separate. That's to insure that the power from different sources does not cause phasing problems. There's a toggle breaker on the power center that makes sure that AC can NOT come from the generator and the grid at the same time.
However, with the "AC in" switched to AC#2 (generator), I can run the generator to directly charge the batteries while simultaneously inverting power. I have a dedicated 240V socket mounted in the wall that is hard-wired to "AC #2 in" so the generator can feed "AC #2 in" directly. When the generator is off, the circuit is NOT hot. Separate 240V sockets are wired off the main house panel, not the inverter itself, for the 240V loads.
You can go to this link to download the Schneider installation manual. It's a large PDF, and too big to attach here. It will go into far more detail than my poor attempt.
Schneider Electric Conext XW+6848 NA Inverter/Charger - RES Supply
Low Flat Rate Freight! Schneider Electric Conext XW+6848 NA Inverter/Charger, 6800W, 120/240VAC, 50/60Hz, 60A Transfer, 48VDC, Sinewave, 140A PFC Charger, With BTS, 865-6848-01, RNW865684801
[/QUOTE]
You're right. "Inverter Load Panel" is not in the Schneider documentation, but it is in some of the others. They showed a diagram with the main house panel being energized from the grid or generator, then connected to the inverter, which then had an "inverter load panel" implying, that there would be a separate wiring for select appliances powered by the inverter. Very odd.
Is the disconnect box a required element? I will not have grid power at all. This will be a completely isolated system. I have settled on the
https://ressupply.com/inverters/schneider-electric-conext-sw4024-120240-invertercharger AC IN will come from the generator. AC OUT will go to the 100 amp house service panel. I'll wire the solar arrary directly into the unit since it has the internal charge controller. I'll figure out later how to hook up a wind turbine. Other than a circuit breaker on the positive battery cable, I'm not sure that I need any other components, unless I want to run DC appliances direct from the batteries, in which case I"ll need a 24v to 12v converter and a DC fuse block.
I am missing something critical?
Thanks
I believe SunGoldPower, is a slightly lower cost cousin to AIMS (both are brands, not manufacturers). I believe the actual manufacturer is either Yiyen or Sigineer.
MichaelK
Solar Wizard
That does sound odd. Every diagram I've seen from Midnight, Outback, and Schneider show the main panel being directly connected to the inverter's output, and generator's power coming into the inverter, not the main panel.
Whether or not you need a disconnect depends on your local code office. Like you, my place is totally off-grid, with the nearest electrical pole 15 miles away. Back when I was first starting to plan my cabin, I took my plans to the county code office to get permits. Their attitude was "why are you bothering us with this, we don't care"? So, basicly, I do what I want.
If you have settled on the https://ressupply.com/inverters/schneider-electric-conext-sw4024-120240-invertercharger you CAN NOT wire the solar arrary directly into the unit! It does not have an internal solar controller. You are confusing the built-in AC generator charging function for charging the batteries on cloudy days when solar output is low. You must pass the raw solar current through a separate charge controller before it gets to the Conext. I have the Midnight200 for both of my systems. You can however, connect your generator to AC in #2 of the Conext. Primary battery charging though must go through the separate solar controller.
Whether or not you need a disconnect depends on your local code office. Like you, my place is totally off-grid, with the nearest electrical pole 15 miles away. Back when I was first starting to plan my cabin, I took my plans to the county code office to get permits. Their attitude was "why are you bothering us with this, we don't care"? So, basicly, I do what I want.
If you have settled on the https://ressupply.com/inverters/schneider-electric-conext-sw4024-120240-invertercharger you CAN NOT wire the solar arrary directly into the unit! It does not have an internal solar controller. You are confusing the built-in AC generator charging function for charging the batteries on cloudy days when solar output is low. You must pass the raw solar current through a separate charge controller before it gets to the Conext. I have the Midnight200 for both of my systems. You can however, connect your generator to AC in #2 of the Conext. Primary battery charging though must go through the separate solar controller.
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Thanks for the clarifications. As you can see, although I've been experimenting with small solar systems (Coleman and Harbor Freight kits) I'm on a pretty steep learning curve. I'm adding a charge controller to my list of components.
I'm building off-grid, but there is public power at the lot corner - about 250 feet away. I just strongly object to being a slave to monthly utility bills. I want to go through the electrical permitting process so that it is on record as being installed per code in case I or a future owner wants to hook up to the grid.
SolarQueen
Making renewable do-able at www.alteStore.com
OK, now that you've clarified that you are looking for off-grid, a lot of your confusion can be fixed. A lot of your questions have different answers based on grid-tied or off-grid. The "inverter load panel" is simply the AC breaker box the AC Out of the inverter is going to. Since you are not getting power from the grid, it is your main breaker box that all of your household appliances are connected to. You should also have a smaller breaker box that is for your generator AC in to the inverter.
You'll also need a DC breaker box for the battery to inverter and solar charge controller breakers. Schneider calls those smaller breaker boxes their switch gear boxes. They have a separate one for AC and DC. Take a look at the last page of the install manual, it has a fairly nice diagram, https://www.altestore.com/static/datafiles/Others/Conext-SW-120V-Installation-GuideRevG.pdf
Midnite Solar has a nice all in one box called the ePanel, https://www.altestore.com/store/enc...steel-250a-for-conext-sw4024-inverter-p11289/ . They've also got some good schematics at the end of their manual, https://www.altestore.com/static/datafiles/Others/ConextSW_EPanel_ManualV3.pdf
You'll also need a DC breaker box for the battery to inverter and solar charge controller breakers. Schneider calls those smaller breaker boxes their switch gear boxes. They have a separate one for AC and DC. Take a look at the last page of the install manual, it has a fairly nice diagram, https://www.altestore.com/static/datafiles/Others/Conext-SW-120V-Installation-GuideRevG.pdf
Midnite Solar has a nice all in one box called the ePanel, https://www.altestore.com/store/enc...steel-250a-for-conext-sw4024-inverter-p11289/ . They've also got some good schematics at the end of their manual, https://www.altestore.com/static/datafiles/Others/ConextSW_EPanel_ManualV3.pdf
