SF Bay Area Process add DIY Off-grid Solar besides current NEM 2 Grid Tied system

plympton said:

if my panels were held on to my garage roof via clips...

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Most "clips" I have seen take either a screwdriver or wrench to remove. Certainly the racking and flashing that attaches and waterproofs the attachments take tools. I have a permitted system with a final inspection and some additions I did after the fact consistent with the other permitted installs. That is how I navigate the gray area. Worses case I could also remove those sections in a day if I had to.

<Rule 21>

Ampster said:

Yes, and since that and UL listing is a requirement of most building departments some products can't be used in many applications. In California the state publishes a list so it is not hard to find certified inverters. Some other states use the California list. There are names on that list I have never heard of. Indeed some of those are hard to find. The usual names such as, Enphase, SolarEdge, Schneider, Outback, SMA, SolArk and many others are readily available online or at local suppliers at least in my suburban region in California.

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Is Rule 21 a requirement of getting a permit?

It only relates to how the inverter interacts with the grid, should not be relevant to an off-grid system.

plympton said:

So you're saying that if my panels were held on to my garage roof via clips...

With these questions, I'm not trying to stir things up - just genuinely curious. I do most of my own work, and generally don't ask for permission before starting. I buy good UL listed gear, the right size cables and connectors, make it safe. However, I also make sure the vast majority of things won't impede the resale of my house down the line - I could remove or disable my solar install in less than a day if necessary.

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Ballasted panel mounts are just held down with weights. Those require engineering designs even when lag-screw attach do not.

Now if you mount the panels on a vehicle, and place the vehicle on your roof, no permits are required.

plympton said:

So you're saying that if my panels were held on to my garage roof via clips...

With these questions, I'm not trying to stir things up - just genuinely curious. I do most of my own work, and generally don't ask for permission before starting. I buy good UL listed gear, the right size cables and connectors, make it safe. However, I also make sure the vast majority of things won't impede the resale of my house down the line - I could remove or disable my solar install in less than a day if necessary.

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Tough call, since it would require a ladder to access and relocate them.

Is the issue whether you do use tools, or whether it could be done without tools?

Hedges said:

Ballasted panel mounts are just held down with weights. Those require engineering designs even when lag-screw attach do not.

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Neat! I know more things today!

hwy17 said:

Separate systems dedicated to powering pools are ineligible for the federal tax credit FYI. It could be questionable whether adding one other appliance really qualifies the system as for "general residential use" or whatever the language is.

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Not saying you are wrong, but I don't see anything in the IRS docs that says this.

"Costs allocable to a swimming pool, hot tub, or any other energy storage medium that has a function other than the function of such storage don't qualify for the residential clean energy credit."


(It took me several tries to find what I remembered reading)

I was hoping to find that pumping would be OK, just not heating. Doesn't seem to be the case, although this sentence may or may not be taken to refer to energy storage in the pool.

If you have a PV system feeding your house, and pool pumping, possibly heating, is one of the loads, does IRS require allocation of costs to pool vs. house?

It seems like my dream of getting a credit for buying an EV to provide ESS won't fly either.

Hedges said:

"Costs allocable to a swimming pool, hot tub, or any other energy storage medium that has a function other than the function of such storage don't qualify for the residential clean energy credit."

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I looked up the original legislation, and the exclusion for pools is only mentioned in the context of "thermal storage systems". Hmmm....

I would think actual wording of law is controlling, not an IRS-authored guideline.
Of course complying with plain-language guidelines (assuming also compliance with text of the law) would be easiest to defend.

400bird said:

"Interconnection to PG&E’s grid is governed by both federal and state
regulations for safety and reliability. All solar and renewable backup power systems must connect to the PG&E
grid."

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Everyone needs to hook up to the power beast or else black Suburbans show up with goons and guns.

Welcome to your future

You may have a problem with your additional system and it being on the same roof as your existing system. I don't know if the building department will be ok with that. Most of the electrical inspections I have had are concerned from a fire safety point of view (and of course the electrical current and grounding) and it could be difficult for someone in a fire emergency to know all of the devices to turn off.

If this were on another structure I doubt you would be considered a generating facility if you are not grid connected. I am doing this in SoCal adding solar to a garage out back separate from my existing grid tied system. I am lucky that the local city building department here is easy and helpful to work with. But for me SCE has nothing to do with my other permits.

timselectric said:

Portable appliances do not require a permit or inspection.
The difference between Portable and permanent is whether it is mounted to a structure.
Basically, if it can be relocated without the use of tools, it's Portable.

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Do you have a document describing that no permit is required for a portable backup system, in case of an inspection from an AHJ?

This could be an interesting DIY solution, to avoid getting a permit by build a cart with a shelf on top of it,
and installing a battery, a Solar charge controller, and a DC/AC inverter, and only use a plug to connect the PV string
and another plug to feed back electricity like a generator to the building.