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Utility dropping power concerns - How are you directing those who don't have DIY skills for energy security?

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AlexShorts

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This is an exploratory question. Looking through the threads I can't see a clear picture in how people solve designs for some of these more complicated systems if they don't have good DIY skills besides just putting in the time to level up. How have you been directing people who don't have the skill or time to do so? I'm genuinely concerned for people who don't have energy security due to lack of funds or knowledge. With the increase and continued increase in heat waves, utilities will have to scale back and drop power to communities at random times. It already happened in CA a few years ago, its inevitable it will happen elsewhere. In east Texas where I'm at, drop in power during a 100+ day will likely lead to loss of life. Would there be value in offering a design service to help people along?

I've been following Will for about a year now and have been very impressed with his builds, knowledge and skill. While I was with Tesla residential and commercial energy for 8 years time and have hence been able to branch out on my own to support local commercial clients in getting systems designed as a licensed EE.

Given that many of these solar/battery systems are quite complicated, or at least appear to be on the surface, how are you directing people who don't have the DIY skills to put these systems together? My thought is that a detailed design package can be generated with installer instructions and guidance and then a home owner could procure equipment themselves and bid out the project to a local electrical contractor to get it built. This would essentially be the process that Will recommended in this video and could help solve for communities that don't have well experienced solar installers or designer available.

Any feedback would be welcomed. Thank you!
Essentially - Do you see value in offering design services?
 
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Welcome to the Forum. Not sure what you are asking I will just say that any alternative energy solution will take knowledge and money to implement. It might also take official permit from authorities. Depending on the authorities this can be easy or a bureaucratic nightmare. Typically those licensed to do permitted work will not just sign off on a DIY project.
 
It would be real nice if there were general solar contractors. Just like general contractors. They would manage the project for those that either don't have the time or the understanding to do it themselves. That would be my suggestion.
 
To move forward in life people need to develop skills to do these things or earn the money pay to have it done.
Find what you are good at and then level up and be great at it.
There will always be many that just pay the electric supplier and take life as it comes. Nothing wrong with this either.

Some may be best to just have a small battery backup plan not connected to the electric system. Many have a generator and burn fuel when needed.
There will never be a single solution to all people.
 
I think it was about 15 years ago that I remember starting to see home generators at Home Depot. Now you can go to home depot, buy a generator, and get a list of electricians that will do the installation.

A battery system (without solar) is not that different from a generator. A battery alone, can solve the few hours of rolling blackout/brownout on a 100 degree day ("energy security"). Streamline permitting, and electricians willing to do the work, will be when Home Depot will offer battery backup. Benefit to the Electrician is that they don't have to warranty the product.

Basic inverter/battery with chargeverter to recharge with a cheap portable generator. Not much more than a large generator.

Just like someone picks out a generator, they can pick the features of the battery they want to have.

Solar panels is a little more complicated as that is more site specific. However, the more people that get a battery initially and then decide to add solar, the more contractors will start offering that service.
 
For power outages I just recommend a gas generator as it's cheapest solution. After that, a decent sized, self-contained "solar generator" like Jackery, Goal Zero, EcoFlow, etc. can keep the fridge cold for a day or so, without much effort.

Anything more than that ... learn to do it, or pay someone to do it.
 
Yup. Gas generators range from the drag it out, fill it up, yank on the cord and hope it starts after sitting 2 years with old gas in it, and run extension cord to your fridge, to full home automatic transfer standby generators, and anywhere in between. Batteries/solar is the same way, to an extent. Drag out the Jackery, hope you actually remembered to recharge it last time you used it, and plug in, or a whole home automatic failover system, and anywhere in between.
 
AlexShorts said:
Would there be value in offering a design service to help people along?
Click to expand...
If you start taking payment for that, you will run afoul of regulatory requirements for licensing as well as create potential criminal and civil liability.
I am using my anonymity as a shield to protect me against litigious claimants and licensing police. I am also very careful to quote applicable code, not make blanket pronouncements, and investigate the details very carefully before making any recommendations.
The best answer is that DIYers are going to have to "level up" or hire a professional. I am not going to lead them by the nose through a project from a distance for free. I am happy to assist people that are trying to improve their knowledge, and point out safety issues as they crop up due to lack of knowledge.
This forum is great for people coming together and sharing knowledge and giving advice. Putting any kind of official stamp on it by offering a "service" is a legal minefield.
 
aragonx said:
It would be real nice if there were general solar contractors. Just like general contractors. They would manage the project for those that either don't have the time or the understanding to do it themselves. That would be my suggestion.
Click to expand...
These are called electrical contractors with solar experience.
 
AlexShorts said:
I'm genuinely concerned for people who don't have energy security due to lack of funds or knowledge. With the increase and continued increase in heat waves, utilities will have to scale back and drop power to communities at random times. It already happened in CA a few years ago, its inevitable it will happen elsewhere. In east Texas where I'm at, drop in power during a 100+ day will likely lead to loss of life. Would there be value in offering a design service to help people along?
Click to expand...
I'm genuinely concerned for those that live in apartment buildings with essentially no option regardless of thier skill set.

Snaketzu said:
These are called electrical contractors with solar experience.
Click to expand...
Easier said then done. Until recently there were none and even today they are few and far between plus from what I've seen are not established contractors, rather they appear to be startups. Not exactly confidence inspiring.

This topic has come up often as many have struggled to get help installing solar from anyone other than trunk slammers with a one size fits all cookie cutter system, either a Enphase or Solar Edge along with a very questionable 20 yr or longer lease offer.
 
OzSolar said:
I'm genuinely concerned for those that live in apartment buildings with essentially no option regardless of thier skill set.
Click to expand...
This is going to sound coarse and unfeeling, but if you want to get self sufficient in any way you have to stop relying on the system. This will require more life changes than just worrying where your electricity comes from. Living in an apartment, condo, or even in a house with an intrusive HOA agreement is probably not the best place to start.


OzSolar said:
Easier said then done. Until recently there were none and even today they are few and far between plus from what I've seen are not established contractors, rather they appear to be startups. Not exactly confidence inspiring.

This topic has come up often as many have struggled to get help installing solar from anyone other than trunk slammers with a one size fits all cookie cutter system, either a Enphase or Solar Edge along with a very questionable 20 yr or longer lease offer.
Click to expand...
This is an absolutely valid critique. I have done work for some of these kinds of companies as a subcontractor, although I do my best attempt to vet them for predatory pricing and sales practices. For those that don't have the funds to purchase outright or equity to provide their own financing, wading into the lease/finance provided pool is to court meetings with sharks and alligators. I don't know how to solve this other than the most extreme vetting and comparison shopping.
Unfortunately, a 20 or 25 year lease/finance is going to require a 20 or 25 year warranty. This is where a major portion of the rub starts. The solar contractors that sell a system with lease or finance are signing off on providing the warranty and this is what they use to justify the ridiculous markups. The reality is that most of them are less than 3 years old and will be subject to the small business 90% failure rate inside 5 years so that warranty is effectively meaningless. I think this is enough of a time bomb that it might put the solar finance companies themselves at risk financially at some point.
I don't do financed solar systems in house but then I'm a general electrical contractor with an interest in self sufficiency and alternate power systems and I have plenty of other work so I can pick and choose. I'm also ethical enough that I'm not running any get rich quick schemes on my customers but I'm aware this makes me something of a unicorn.
 
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Snaketzu said:
This is going to sound coarse and unfeeling, but if you want to get self sufficient in any way you have to stop relying on the system. This will require more life changes than just worrying where your electricity comes from. Living in an apartment, condo, or even in a house with an intrusive HOA agreement is probably not the best place to start.
Click to expand...

I'm in complete agreeance. My desire is to help people move toward this security. I really don't want to be a contractor but if there is value in providing designs to people that would allow them to go off-grid it may be something worth exploring.

The companies here that offer these type of systems either have outdated frameworks and poorly designed systems. It irks me to no end. It might just be that I begin to offer the service locally and see if anyone bites. If not just move on to other endeavors.

First post here, I appreciate the feedback from everyone. It has helped me think through the situation.
 
AlexShorts said:
I'm in complete agreeance. My desire is to help people move toward this security. I really don't want to be a contractor but if there is value in providing designs to people that would allow them to go off-grid it may be something worth exploring.
Click to expand...
I firmly believe there is tremendous business opportunity here, the old fashioned kind built around true value to the customer, not the new financialized grab the money and run kind.
AlexShorts said:
It irks me to no end. It might just be that I begin to offer the service locally and see if anyone bites
Click to expand...
Be sure you don't run afoul of the regulatory structure. I am generally not a fan of government usurping our rights and selling them back to us as a license, but on the other hand wiring is not a hobby and the NEC and state and local permitting and licensing came about for a very good reason. There is absolutely no reason you can't offer consultancy services or maybe even operate as a general contractor depending on your state and local requirements, but for electrical design you will probably need to get an CPE to back you up and to do any actual electrical work you will probably need a locally licensed electrical contractor. This is absolutely a doable business arrangement, you acting as general contractor/superintendent will smooth the process greatly and provide access to vetted subcontractors, GC generally charge around 20% markup and you would earn it.
 
aragonx said:
But would they help with panel layout and parts ordering? Finding a contractor to mount the panels for you?
Click to expand...
In my state the guys on the roof installing the rails, wiring, and panels are required to be licensed electricians. In my case that is mostly done by apprentices although I'm not too good to get on the roof myself to instruct, check everything out at appropriate times, or to do troubleshooting. The laws and regulations in your jurisdiction may vary.
If they are qualified to do this work they should have access to design and engineering services to see the permit through the inspection process. Most jurisdictions require engineer stamped blueprints, some do not.
The customer should be vetting these recommendations and looking over their shoulder every step of the way, without getting in the way if you know what I mean.
 
As adoption of V2H-capable EV's grows, I expect many will end up choosing home EV chargers with tightly-coupled ATS capabilities - installed by regular electricians much as dumb EVSE's are now.
 
Snaketzu said:
The customer should be vetting these recommendations and looking over their shoulder every step of the way, without getting in the way if you know what I mean.
Click to expand...
I've found that most companies don't like me climbing up their ladder to see what they are doing on the roof. I feel awkward putting my own ladder out and coming up elsewhere on the roof to join them. :ROFLMAO:

Maybe I could follow them around with one of those recently banned DJI drones.
 
I have used a telephoto lens on my camera to see what is going on. Yes, I have had to get a crew to fix stuff they did wrong. No, they did not come back for another day.
 
cs1234 said:
I've found that most companies don't like me climbing up their ladder to see what they are doing on the roof. I feel awkward putting my own ladder out and coming up elsewhere on the roof to join them. :ROFLMAO:

Maybe I could follow them around with one of those recently banned DJI drones.
Click to expand...
I know you are being somewhat tongue in cheek, but I can't allow non employees on my ladders for insurance reasons.
I have no problems with homeowners getting on the roof with their own ladders, nor watching me with drones as long as it doesn't get in the way.
 
Snaketzu said:
I know you are being somewhat tongue in cheek, but I can't allow non employees on my ladders for insurance reasons.
I have no problems with homeowners getting on the roof with their own ladders, nor watching me with drones as long as it doesn't get in the way.
Click to expand...
You caught me. I know the insurance reasons.. as a matter of fact.. I'm here on the forums when I should be doing a yearly insurance audit. 😭
 
AlexShorts said:
This is an exploratory question. Looking through the threads I can't see a clear picture in how people solve designs for some of these more complicated systems if they don't have good DIY skills besides just putting in the time to level up. How have you been directing people who don't have the skill or time to do so? I'm genuinely concerned for people who don't have energy security due to lack of funds or knowledge. With the increase and continued increase in heat waves, utilities will have to scale back and drop power to communities at random times. It already happened in CA a few years ago, its inevitable it will happen elsewhere. In east Texas where I'm at, drop in power during a 100+ day will likely lead to loss of life. Would there be value in offering a design service to help people along?

I've been following Will for about a year now and have been very impressed with his builds, knowledge and skill. While I was with Tesla residential and commercial energy for 8 years time and have hence been able to branch out on my own to support local commercial clients in getting systems designed as a licensed EE.

Given that many of these solar/battery systems are quite complicated, or at least appear to be on the surface, how are you directing people who don't have the DIY skills to put these systems together? My thought is that a detailed design package can be generated with installer instructions and guidance and then a home owner could procure equipment themselves and bid out the project to a local electrical contractor to get it built. This would essentially be the process that Will recommended in this video and could help solve for communities that don't have well experienced solar installers or designer available.

Any feedback would be welcomed. Thank you!
Essentially - Do you see value in offering design services?
Click to expand...

how are you directing people without skills to repair thier cars? it's not just power it's everything. and in my eyes those with out DIY skills aren't middle or lower class OR they are living beyond their means. worse yet everything now is designed to fail!


20 year old car prices are jumping! my own cars have shot up in prices on the social market place. i've also noticed hiring labor these days is a crap shoot. you might get bad work! want it done right, do it your self. problem is as you mention the time and energy to get to that level. so then the problem there in my eyes is education, REAL education.

to be fair some of these all one in one systems are getting pretty damn simplified. i guess if thats too much, you can pay more for solar generators??? in case of heat waves i got these little ice boxes with built in pumps that you fill with ice and they connect to cooling pads you put on your body. my buddy found them brand new at good will. down side is the cooling pads are $50 a pop on line.
 
My 2 cents:
I think these days it's pretty easy:
Lots of over-the-counter products exist, which you don't need DIY skills to use them.
Just look at the plethora of portable solar generators available. These are ready made, ready to use. Some simple, some more complicated, but I think all are simpler than DIYing your own system.
Just throw some panels in your backyard and hookup to the solar generator and your basically ready to go.

Having said that, it's also easier these days to educate yourself. Lots of resources online now available. You see many less technical people DIYing there own little system based on stuff they learned online. YT, Will Prowse and of course this forum have made a big contribution to this good situation.

So I don't really see the problem.

Other than that, I try to help friends, co-workers, family and of course fellow forum members with what I can.
 
meetyg said:
Just throw some panels in your backyard and hookup to the solar generator and your basically ready to go.
Click to expand...
I used to hate solar generators because they were vastly overpriced for their features but the price has become much more reasonable. This isn't a bad option and it is also portable. Not being permanently installed equipment nor tied to the grid gets past a lot of the regulation too.
 
Nobodybusiness said:
Did they actually ban them?
I heard rumblings about doing it..
Click to expand...
Not sure if it passed both the House and the Senate. Thought it passed at least one so far. Maybe that was something else that got hit with a ban hammer.
 
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