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Off-grid 25Kw Solar / 30Kw Battery / 10Kw wind turbine system - Please Help!

Roel

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Joined
Oct 11, 2020
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Hi All,

I am:
  • considering building a 25Kw Solar / 30Kw Battery / 10Kw wind turbine system for off-grid use.
  • a quick learner and have some electrical knowledge, but am not an electrician.
  • planning to order panels with micro-inverters + wind turbine from China.
My max continuous draw at any point is approx 8000 Watt.

What would your recommendations/cautions be?

Thank you very much
 
Cautions are do you actually have enough wind in your location?
Have you done a site survey?
How tall of a tower are you considering?
Chinese wind turbines sound like a bad idea.


 
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And unless you've got a bunch of electrical consumption that coincides with your solar activity 30kw of battery is not enough for 25kw of panels. I've got 6kw in panels and 48kw in battery and I still have (half the year) days where I had the capability to make more power (much more power) but no way to save it.
 
Located in NSW, Australia. From researching, wind may indeed not be sufficient.

For solar + battery that is an interesting notion. Perhaps I oversized PV array and undersized battery.

Use will be around 70 Kwh/day. Does that help?
 
70kWh/day is a lot. Unless you have commercial scale wind, forget it. Put your money into solar panels. I'm guessing you are rural and have plenty of space so a couple of 10kW ground mounted arrays is probably within scope. Since you are in NSW you should check your insolation. 15kW over 5 hours is only just scraping in meeting your expected demand. You might actually need 3 arrays to do that through the whole year.

30kW at full tilt is nothing to sniff at. If you plan on trying to capture that sort of wattage you are going to need a spectacular battery to say the least. You'll want an integrated system so that the battery charge rate can be limited to stop it blowing up but still permit you to draw as much from the arrays during the day to run any loads you might have active rather than dipping into battery storage.

A full analysis of your usage and load patterns should be done before taking another step. Work out what you can move to day time use to reduce the size of battery required to hold loads up overnight.
 
I like the idea of oversize array, use it or lose it, because PV costs a fraction of batteries.
Two things you need to do to make that work:
1) Limit battery charge to whatever rate is optimum for the battery. Lithium may accept pretty high currents, but as with lead acid, don't let them get too hot.
2) Enable loads to make use of power as it is generated.

My system (primarily grid backup) regulates battery current as a setting in the Sunny Island battery inverter. PV is AC coupled with Sunny Boy, and production is curtailed to match loads + target charge current. I will recommend SMA, of course. Uh, how much do you have to spend?

Loads can be shed depending on SoC. More ideally, they are enabled to consume surplus production, even continuously variable (like pumps run with VFD.) Sunny Island communicates by raising frequency, and Sunny Boy reduces output. I think there have been some aftermarket devices which detect frequency shift to control loads.

Some DC coupled battery chargers, especially with a communication link to inverters, may also curtail production to hit target charge current.

Microinverters - I don't think those deliver any particular benefit, especially for a battery based off-grid system. One or more larger AC coupled inverters or DC charge controllers would allow a better job of matching PV panels to electronics.

Starting motor loads requires considerable surge current, typically 5x what label says. So consider in particular any pumps and air conditioners.

I've seem my system put out just shy of 100 kWh on a cool sunny day. Haven't paid attention to winter; with grid tie net metering I burn off credits then. During winter, how much do you expect load to be?
 
Thanks. Budget about 40-50k AUD (30-35k USD). Winter load likely similar to summer load if using air conditioners. Wind is 3.5m/s. Sunny days per year is high.
 
Good, you can afford quality equipment. There are many inexpensive inverters, some may be OK. The top brands have a track record of durability and a selection of equipment to build a large system. I'm recommending SMA because that's what I have and know, and others here have recommended Victron, Outback, Midnite Solar, Magnum, Xantrax and Schneider.

Here's a brochure from SMA showing a few customer systems:


They used to sell inverters for wind turbines as well, but dropped that. PV is a larger market. Their older models have settings to work with wind turbines, which would also need circuitry to provide dump loads/braking and clamp any voltage overshoots. Alternatively any DC coupled charging system could be used. A shunt measures charge current so the battery inverter can keep track of it.

Here in the US we have a number of surplus and used sources of PV equipment, sometimes closeouts of new equipment for a fraction of retail (especially due to a high profile fraud/bankruptcy of one company selling products.) A lot of us get panels from Santan Solar. Others are ordering directly from manufacturers in China. You'll have to see how ordering direct and shipping costs compare to your local vendors.

Australia power is 230V 50 Hz, like much of Europe. Off-grid of course you can do what you want, but your appliances will probably be local. Many things run OK on voltages from 208 to 240V and 50 to 60 Hz, but for some the frequency makes a big difference.

I have SMA Sunny Boy 6048 battery inverter (48V battery, 120VAC 6000W) and a variety of Sunny Boy PV inverters from 2.5 kW to 10 kW. One of the models of Sunny Boy is transformerless (as are their current models), and while slightly more efficient I think they got upset when running off-grid and powering a variable frequency pool pump. It may be that all transformer based inverters will be more robust.

SMA now has a 400V battery inverter Sunny Boy Storage which is up to 6 kW, but only one can be used. Sunny Island is available in European models 8.0H (6kW continuous at 25C, 8kW for 30 minutes) which can be stacked for additional power or connected as 3-phase.


Up to 12 kW of Sunny Boy PV inverter can be used with each Sunny Island 8.0H. Two, 6 kW Sunny Boy for 12 kW might produce about 60 kWh per day (assuming 5 hours effective sun) with fixed orientation panels all facing one direction. You can parallel multiple strings of panels on one MPPT input, or put them on separate inputs (some PV inverters have 2 or 3 MPPT). With two arrays oriented 90 degrees apart, such as 10:00 AM and 4:00 PM, the array can be 140% as big for the same peak power. You can over-panel beyond that, which will clip production during some hours and season but not drop as low during off hours. So enough panels to deliver 84 kWh per day could be used with one 8.0H

Batteries - lots of they guys are using lithium, DIY assembly, on their various inverters. SMA officially supports select brands/models with BMS that communicates in their protocol, but not cheap. Lead-acid is another option. Lower cycle life than lithium but proportionately lower cost, so cost over same time period could be similar. Lithium may have reached the point where some equal or beat lifetime cost of lead-acid, if the bank is heavily cycled every night. If sized to go 3 days without sun by deeper discharge, but ordinarily cycled only 1/6th of capacity during night and recharged the next day, I think lead-acid can give 10 years life and be more economical. For large systems, some people here use FLA forklift batteries, which need periodic watering and equalizing charge. They aim for exactly optimum charge rate, which may be 0.2C in order to keep electrolyte mixed. There are also gel-cell (must have low charge rate), and AGM, which I use. Those two are maintenance-free. My AGM bank is sized to deep-discharge at night, but that only happens during grid failure. During the day, I have more PV than consumption so battery stays full and PV inverters curtail power output to match my loads for A/C, laundry, etc.

Sunny Island costs around $5000. Sunny Boy is around $2000 but you can pick up new in the box older models for less. FLA forklift batteries cost around $5000 for 40 kWh, and AGM costs around $5000 for 20 kWh (use about 70% of capacity). AGM should last 10 years with 15 % discharge nightly, 2 years with 70% discharge. FLA may be good for more cycles. Lithium I've heard of 2000 to 5000 deep cycles so could last 10 years, possibly 20 if not as deeply cycled, but that's just what I read, don't have experience.
 
Configuration and SMA support -
There are web interfaces which can let SMA log in remotely to check logs and adjust configuration for you.
They also offer monitoring where they notify installer and customer of issues.

My SI-6048US have an SD card, and my system isn't networked. So I ran commands according to instructions SMA provided which saved logs to the SD card and emailed to them. I adjusted settings on Sunny Island with front panel pushbuttons. My older Sunny Boy inverters have either Ethernet or RS-485 interface cards and I used Sunny Explorer software to alter settings (e.g. grid-tie vs. off-grid), or an older interface box I have with pushbuttons.

Some of the newer products use Bluetooth to set/read with a smartphone.
 

Steve_S is guy to talk to​


He built a full 10kw system from Chinese imports, tested etc and could give you some really good direction on what to use. He's a bit of guru in my book. I just dont know how to tag people in. @Steve_S ? Search fir his name in the members list. he is up the top. There is a whole thread on his 10kw setup i jut cant find it! Worth a read for sure. You can just scale it.

Also, there is alot of rural boar/water pumps which would rull big arrays out where you are. Heaps of locals to talk to for sure.
 
Wrong Steve_S I don't do Wind Turbines. I'm just a CHargery User who re-wrote the Chargery BMS Manuala and a few other things.
 
70 kilowatt-hours per day? We're talking a cattle ranch, or dairy farm not a residential property - right?

Also a fan of SMA.
 
Welcome to the forums!

What would your recommendations/cautions be?
I'd plan everything out and understand my needs and location before thinking about hardware.

Unless you've a wind study and done the economics, I'd stay away from wind (see www.solacity.com/small-wind-turbine-truth/).

Does that 70 kWh/day vary seasonally?
Take a look at an insolation calculator to determine the array size you need. For example, let's say you need 70 kWh/d in June and live in Canberra and set your panels at 40° tilt (optimum for winter). The insolation is 3.84 so you'd need 70/3.84 = 18.3 kW Array.

But if you use 70 kWh/d in January and only 50 kWh/d in June, then you'd take the larger 70/5.3=13.2 or 50/3.84=13.02. That's 5 kW less and a lot of savings!

There's a lot to manipulate, for example if you need 70 kWh/d in January and only 10 in June, you could optimize the panels for summer at 70° tilt and only need 10.6 kW of panels.

I'd also recommend modeling in SAM. It's a big chunk to learn (watch the videos), but it'll help you get exactly what you need and not lose money because you didn't size things properly.
 
He/She is doing an all 'Chinese' build

Definitely 'He' last time I checked :)

Feel free to ask anything regarding my build and component choices. My goal with that project was to see if it's feasible to build a system like the one described with cheap, but relatively high quality products from manufacturers that have been around for a while but might not be as well known. I have no problem with Victron and other high end stuff like Batrium and use them extensively when I do consulting in the field; I just wanted to see what else is possible. I've been testing these for the past months and I'm currently confident enough in them that I'm incorporating them all in my off grid place replacing an older system entirely, including my own design of ground mounts for solar panels etc.

I also have some plans for a 1MW+ solar plant here in the north...
 
We can tell you're not from California ?
(That's not how it's done around here)
 
Thank you very much everyone for the input. It seems a bit daunting and a bit of a road ahead, but if I manage to drive through this one it looks like we'll have free electricity at about the same cost as what a power connection here would be (rural property).

Question; is using many inverters accross the house a good/bad idea? i.e. if you want to use a heater, switch on inverter + heater and so on?
 
One inverter system. It can send signals to shed less important loads depending on state of charge.
You could also configure a priority switch, where one one large load is enabled another is turned off.

If you go with Sunny Island, one can be on and tell the others to sit quietly unless their power is needed. 25W operating, 4W standby.
Of course that's only if you need more than one. And one can sleep, opening an eye occasionally to see if anybody wants power.

A fossil fuel generator is a good way to make it through occasional times of insufficient power, lets you size battery much smaller. Just need fuel with good shelf life (i.e. not gasoline)
 
I have a back-up generator that can use straight vegetable oil (in addition to regular diesel). That way, I can actually in theory grow my own fuel :)

Also one inverter, but I don't heat electric since it's not practical (heating season has almost no sunlight here).
Really... that’s sweet.

I also have a backup generator even in the caravan. My advise is to work out your loads and what you want to store etc. but be okay with the idea that if you run a gamer story one of twice a month to recharge the batteries that’s a okay. May be the difference between pricing a 40k solution and a 50k solution.
 

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