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Why in the heck is there not a Lifepo4 cell manufacturer in the USA?

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VanLife Jake

VanLife Jake

When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade...
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Guys, I am new to solar and DYI batteries.
I am just curious why there is not a manufacturer in the USA?
Is it lack of raw materials?
Patented technologies?
From all of the interest, and activity in this forum. It is certainly not lack of interest...
Any thoughts?
 
The biggest capacity increases globally are for NCA cells to support the growth in EVs. Tesla has a huge factory in Nevada that reportedly makes a million cells per day for their cars. LiFeP04 is lower in in the pecking order and clearly China had developed capacity for LFP cells. I do not think it is because China controls the supply of Lithium.
I agree with a lot of what @efbasham has to say above.
 
BarkingSpider said:
The USA cannot be competitive for so many reasons.

— lack of skilled personnel
— no channels for parts
—over bearing legislation

The list is long, the same reason any smart phone is not made in the USA, Apple estimated the same phone would cost 10x more made in the USA if it was even possible.
Click to expand...
And you have to pay your employees too much, even in USA.
 
Ampster said:
Tesla has a huge factory in Nevada that reportedly makes a million cells per day for their cars.
Click to expand...

That is the first time I have heard that.

Do you mean making or assembling cells?

Any reference?
 
Just the little that I know about battery manufacturing, it is a very dirty process. There was a battery manufacturer not far from me that recent closed. This was due to consolidation but the site had known issues with lead.

For lithium, some companies employee leaching ponds to extract the metal, others use an acid bath. In either case, the byproducts are very nasty.
 
HRTKD said:
Source: Beating China at the lithium game — can the US secure supplies to meet its renewables targets?
Click to expand...

And according to this source the second largest Lithium mining project in the world is located in Nevada:

www.mining-technology.com

Top ten biggest lithium mines in the world

Dive into the world's largest lithium mines with our comprehensive feature, spotlighting the top ten sites known for their significant lithium production.
www.mining-technology.com www.mining-technology.com

Hmmm, did @Will Prowse make a pre-emptive move to be closer to the source?
 
I read a report that a very cost effective way to recycle lithium batteries has been found. for the life of me I can't find it to post it here. IF that is true will change every thing.
 
The Chinese Gov dumped huge amounts of money into LFP cells through subsidies on certain electric vehicles. These have been extended somewhat into 2020, and they produced a dominant industry. The resulting tech and production lines will remain that way for many years. In addition China had few pollution controls, and minimal occupational safety requirements. They will/are paying the price for this though, 2/3 of their surface water is unsafe for swimming. Say what you want of the EPA, but I prefer my local lake to not give me cancer.

The production of these cells is low labor and very automated. The major cost is the laminate production machines, which are cutting edge.

As grid and EV storage needs grow exponentially, you will see mfgs popping up all over the world to meet the need. Up until 5 years ago big LFP cells was a tiny niche market.
 
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texskeet said:
I read a report that a very cost effective way to recycle lithium batteries has been found. for the life of me I can't find it to post it here. IF that is true will change every thing.
Click to expand...

There was a post made on the forum recently about refreshing a LiFePO4 cell. Unfortunately, I can't find it.
 
JoeHam said:
Do you mean making or assembling cells?

Any reference?
Click to expand...
Manufacturing from raw materials to finished cells. I was a little off on my number, at 1:30 hh:mm the VP of Panasonic Energy of North America says "millions of cells per day" in Nevada at the Tesla Gigafactory.
Of course these are small cells but the volume is overwhelming. Also these are NCA not LFP.
 
Luthj said:
Say what you want of the EPA, but I prefer my local lake to not give me cancer.
Click to expand...

Even with the EPA we have companies considering fines to be the cost of doing business while they dump toxins into lakes and rivers. I am reminded of a gold mining company in Montana which used cyanide as part of their process to extract gold. They had agreed to clean it all up when they were done in order to get the lease on the public land but when they got all the gold, they filed bankruptcy and folded, leaving the cyanide waste in place.
 
oudin_coil said:
For lithium, some companies employee leaching ponds to extract the metal, others use an acid bath. In either case, the byproducts are very nasty
Click to expand...
It doesn't have to be for Lithium. Until recently Lithium demend was not great. China did strategically see the importance of it and contracted with suppliers. Lithium is also fairly abundant and easily recycled. As noted above Nevada is a large resource. More suppliers will enter the market. Lithium supply is not the constraint. It is the materials in the anode like nickel and cobalt that are expensive. That of course is for NCA. I don't know the specifics of LFP anodes.
 
Freep said:
I am reminded of a gold mining company in Montana which used cyanide as part of their process to extract gold.
Click to expand...
Not to mention the hundreds of coal mine spoils ponds that litter the country. They are sometimes referred to as a boney pile, culm bank, gob pile, waste tip or bing. Lately the EPA has shown little interest in cleaning of those.
 
texskeet said:
I read a report that a very cost effective way to recycle lithium batteries has been found. for the life of me I can't find it to post it here. IF that is true will change every thing
Click to expand...
J.B. Strauble, an original co-founder of Tesla has started a company to do just that. Google him and Redwood.
 
Decade(s?) ago I nearly invested in a US company that made LiFeP04 batteries in military formats. Billed as a safe battery, the video of theirs vs typical taking a bullet was impressive. Only thing missing was a capacity comparison. Sometimes what is not being said is more important.
 
Ampster said:
Not to mention the hundreds of coal mine spoils ponds that litter the country. They are sometimes referred to as a boney pile, culm bank, gob pile, waste tip or bing. Lately the EPA has shown little interest in cleaning of those.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Australia's EPA has required mine operators to have a completely funded mitigation and long term closure plan up to a decade in advance. Can't even get a mining license without a comprehensive plan which includes funding.

Thankfully the LFP tech is easily recycled, as it contains no heavy metals, the batteries themselves are fairly low risk. Major components are a hydrocarbon electrolyte, iron phosphate ceramic, and graphite. There is also aluminum and copper, but they can separated fairly readily. Now the cobalt and Nickle Li-ion chemistries are another matter, as both are very durable and toxic, and are not readily mechanically separated from the base electrode material.

The manufacture does use some nasty chemicals, but my understanding is that they can be recovered and neutralized/recycled for reasonable costs.
 
I
Luthj said:
The Chinese Gov dumped huge amounts of money into LFP cells through subsidies on certain electric vehicles.
Click to expand...
Some of those subsidies were in the form of support for research and development. We often only hear of Chinese stealing technology and that is certainly true.
However my opinion is that focusing on IP theft masks the strategic moves they made to improve manufacturing processes which gave them the competitive advantage they have. With the rise of their middle class, cheap labor is no longer the advantage it used to be. There is a surprising amount of automation being deployed in China.
 
Americans do not want to pay. That is the primary reason.

Just look at the USA local re-sellers that buy LFP's from Alibaba - they are 2x the cost. They offer some transaction security, much faster delivery, etc.....but at a serious price hit. Now, imagine the whole process was happening here in the USA - the cells would be our of economic reach.

The Tesla Giga-Factory exists for a specific use-case. It may lead to more practical manufacturing of general purpose cells that can supply any industry but it will take a long time. For now, the giga-factory is just a small part of a giant supply chain gap for a specific company.

The citizens of the USA have been voting with thier wallets for many many decades. They vote for 'CHEAP!' without any recognition for the long term costs of losing local manufacturing and skills while simulataneously handing massive growth to China - for free.
 
Factory400 said:
The Tesla Giga-Factory exists for a specific use-case. It may lead to more practical manufacturing of general purpose cells that can supply any industry but it will take a long time. For now, the giga-factory is just a small part of a giant supply chain gap for a specific company
Click to expand...
I do not know, and I don't think Tesla discloses the percentages of their cells that go into EVs and go into battery storage.
I do think the Tesla Gigafactory is a major part of the supply chain for Tesla. The battery may be the single largest cost component of a Tesla.
I think Tesla has a long term strategic plan that I think is lacking in much of industry in the USA.
 
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