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BMS Basics 4 100AH 200AH 4 & 8 Battery Setups

Download this resource: https://diysolarforum.com/resources/luyuan-tech-basic-lifepo4-guide.151/

That will explain assembly and more.

The BMS's vary depending on manufacturer & type of BMS. The wiring is simple enough, the black is (-) and the rest are the battery sense leads, each one goes onto the appropriate (+) side of each cell. Ring Terminals have to be installed onto the Harness and then attached to the battery BEFORE plugging the harness into the BMS. WARNING, One tiny BooBoo and the BMS goes POOF, it is very sensitive electronics and no margin for error. Best to review the Manual for that specific BMS.
Thank you, Steve. I guess you already knew that was a perfect resource, since it includes a download to the very batteries I purchased.

Questions:
1. I'm building a 2P4S system, and the guide seems to be saying to make the parallel connections first, and also that they should balance naturally. Does this mean that the 4 wires from the BMS are sufficient, since the 4 sets of parallel connected cells should balance naturally?

2. I also see talk of relays, but I'm unclear about why I would need them. Am I correct in assuming that the cheapy BSM simply gets wired in and largely forgotten about, as it does it's balancing in the background?

3. My sketch would have created two 4S packs, linked in parallel, and I see now that would have been wrong! I'll attach a pic from your link that I now believe is correct, for confirmation.

4. My current practice is to put my current boat battery in the trunk of my bike, where it's connected to the bike's battery posts. I believe this acts like "jump starting" for charging purposes, and assume the bike knows better than to overcharge it's own battery. I believe this serves to add to the bike's energy holding capacity, even as running the bike keeps the battery perpetually charged for use in the boat. It seems to work flawlessly, but with a tiny boat battery by comparison. Is there any reason to believe I can't do the same with this new build?

Background that may be relavant: I don't have much discretionary dough, because I'm already dying of Stage 4 colon cancer, suposedly. (Doc gave me 6-18 months, about 3 years ago, and I'm really no closer to dead.) The only reason I bring this up, is because I am unlikely to require the claimed 2,000 charging cycles the seller claimed, so I don't necessarily require an "ideal" build... if there are corners that can reasonably be cut.

More important would be getting it operational, sooner rather than later.

Btw, would a solar company be best to locally source the jumpers between the batteries? The seller included 8, which would be 1 more than I need for 24 volts, but 3 fewer than I need for 2P4S, correct?

Any and all advice will continue to be appreciated!
 

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Btw, I received zero literature from the seller, and have no clue of the make and specs of the supplied BMS.
 
and assume the bike knows better than to overcharge it's own battery.
I would not make that assumption, unless the previous battery was Lithium.

As to your BMS questions, there are good discussions here and on the resource center, to explain the functions, and do and don'ts of a BMS.
A mechanical relay, or a solid state relay allows the BMS to protect your battery if you do something dumb, it can shut off the battery.
 
OK, you are suffering from a bit of what I call alphabet soup confusions which happens to many.... the jargon get's folks mixed up.
Cells are rated for their AMP HOUR capacity, which is different than the Amps they put out.
A 280AH cell for example has exactly that, 280 Amp Hours @ 3.6 Volts, when assembled into a 12V pack (4 cells), that pack or battery is considered as 12VDC / 280AH.
Most LFP cells are capable of a 1C discharge rate. If using the 280AH example, that means max 280A out. If .5C rate discharge that means 140A out.

When looking at a BMS, they are rated for the amount of amperage they can handle. So a 4S/100A BMS will handle a maximum of 100A @ X voltage, be it 12,24 or higher. The BMS' that do not use external relays, use FETS for internal handling of the power, FETS work well but are not tolerant of working beyond spec. So if you know you will be pulling 100A on a regular basis but may have a surge that could double it, you best to go with a 200A BMS. If you stick to a 100A BMS (FET based) and all of a sudden have a demand of 120 / 130 amps, the BMS will more than fail / burn out.

Common-Port means it uses the same wiring to charge & discharge the battery pack.
Separate Port means there is a separate wire for discharging and another or charging, each can be separately disconnected by the BMS as needed.

The load you are going to pull, including Inverter, Devices/appliances have to be figured into to determine the amperage potential to select the proper BMS. 1000W @ 12V = 83A. 1500W @ 12V = 125A

You can parallel Packs to make a larger battery bank. Each pack is a separate & independent entity managed by it's own BMS. If properly wired in a parallel bus method, you will get the most balanced charge & discharge to/from the bank of packs and there really is no limit like there was with Lead Acid batteries. Have a look at pages 9-12 especially in this excellent document by Victron: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Wiring-Unlimited-EN.pdf

Some gotcha's that may seem wise but aren't. It sort of falls into Penny Wise, Dollar foolish thinking.
There are LFP cells from 10AH to 1000AH available on the market, of course the price climbs as the size/capacity does naturally. YES there are 1000AH cells and they are crazy pricey and not that common !

There are different ways to build packs, most suitable is to have each cell managed and preferably balanced by the BMS because that offers the most management possible. Another method is to parallel cells in packs to double the pack capacity, so instead of using 4 100AH cells to make 12V/100AH pack, you use 8 100AH Cells to make a 12V/200AH pack. The parallel pack in essence "ghosts" the cells and your not getting the best management possible and there is potential for problems going unnoticed till it's too late. The "proper" way would be to use 4x 200AH cells to make a 12v/200AH pack, or 4x 400AH cells to make 12V/400AH.

The economy factor (dollar foolish part)
Doubling cells and losing 1/2 the managing capability is foolish and a false economy on saving on BMS cost (it's not that big to pinch pennies).
Often times buying 8 100AH cells to build two 12V/100AH packs ea with 4S BMS will actually cost more than just buying 4x200AH cells and one BMS. Remember there is a Shipping Cost and it's NOT CHEAP as LFP cells are heavy and it adds on top of the cell cost ! When you crunch the numbers up and compare it as cost per Amp Hour including shipping & handling plus BMS, it becomes more obvious.

At present the XUBA 280AH cells made by EVE seem to be the best price point but sales & specials come up regularly. Many of us here have bought these over the past couple of months and folks are testing & beating on them and using them, I have 16 arriving on Wednesday. See link in my signature for XUBA deal for a long thread on these as well there is a link to another long running detailed thread on them in there too.

!!! CHARGING !!!
Please be aware, the bigger the battery bank in Amp Hours the more Amperage will be needed to charge the batteries. At a charge rate of 0.5C on a 100AH pack, means 50A, a charge rate of 1C is 100A. You cannot exceed the cells limits and those vary by brand & size/capacity of cell. So however you intend to charge the batteries, you have to ensure you have enough amperage to do the job. So the Solar Charge Controller (SCC) needs to be sized accordingly and supplied with enough panel to be able to deliver that amount of amperage. An AC Charger if used, running from your AC power source also has to have enough amperage to do the job. Many Inverter/ Charger units are designed to be able to charge their attached battery banks based on their design / wattage ratings. These vary quite a bit when looking at product lines and quality / tier level.

** Some folks have built massive LFP packs 500AH+ and then think that a small 12V/30A SCC with a pair of 12V 100W panels will do the job.... NOT ! It would take forever to "trickle" charge because that will never even get 30A charge from the SCC going out. This is surprisingly quite common (hence a PLAN is a MUST before buying anything) with new to solar people. Also NEVER EVER make assumptions, 99% of the time that ends up making an ass out of oneself. Everything has to work together in cooperation to achieve the goals you have. Properly sizing a battery bank to meet your needs and wants, having enough charging capability to recharge your battery bank and to maintain it in good health a all times.

Hope that helps,
good luck.
Steve
This is the most helpful summary I think I have read! Lol

I have the former setup you mentioned however, I have 2 batteries with 100amp BMS per(I like redundancy, lol) - If I parallel connect them I would achieve 200ah as with lead acid but will the 100amp BMS work for each battery? Or would I have to upgrade to 200 per battery?

My array is basically 2 12v arrays I suppose, I have 1000 watts of panels(2x500 watts with 2 seperate 40 amp controllers all Renogy) and technically 2 batteries. Again redundancy as if any part fails I had no replacement parts I can always have a way to reroute power. If I had one battery of larger capacity instead and one cell died of become unusable I am done.

THis may be weird but I never put all my eggs in one basket. lol
 
Batteries in parallel share (divide) the charge/discharge voltage/amperage.
2x 100AH in Parallel gives you XXvolts/200AH stored Capacity.
That means if inverter is pulling 100A, the two packs will share that and output 50A ea (provided they are matched and balanced)
When charging it also means they split the incoming voltage & amperage.

If you have a 100AH and a 200AH in parallel, they will still share BUT the bigger battery will draw more amps during charge (because of it's size) and for longer, proportionately relative to capacity & SOC. THIS IS NORMAL and does not affect things much. The bigger battery will also remain in operation if the smaller one cuts off due to Lo Volt state. BUT the bigger battery will try to top off the smaller one and transfer power to it... * Some BMS can work around this, not cheap & complex as hell.

Best redundancy is to go with a Properly Paralleled Bank making sure each battery pack is fused, that each BMS is set identically, that battery wires from batt posts to busbar are identical in length & gauge, that battery packs are identical or close in AH Capacity. Also IDEALLY, each Battery Pack should be capable of delivering / receiving the full Discharge/Charge as if it was a Standalone only pack, because 1 or more packs may cut off during charge/discharge for Hi/Lo Volt conditions or other possible faults.

Hope that helps
 
Sounds good! Both of my batteries so far are identical- same cells and both have the same identical DALY 12v 4s 100amp BMS. The batteries were supposed to have been EVE cells but I have my doubts on that. I plan on building them basically in a tote enclosed with each other but haven't made it that far. I will have 2 different charge controllers charging them at some point. But I am very new to Lithium and BMS stuff. Up until now I have 5 deep cycles. Thank you for the useful info, but be clear If I read it correctly in parallel my 100 amp BMS per battery should work? And is this BMS configurable? If so how, it isn't the Bluetooth model that was a bit pricey. Lol.
 
1) I'm not a fan of Daly but they have both Smart & Dumb BMS' the smart ones are obviously programmable and cost more.
2) If a FET Based BMS like you have is rated for 100A, NEVER go above 80A ! They are rated to their "Edge Case" without margin and FET based NEEDS margin to remain safe & reliable over time.
3) You do not know what the cells are ? Eeekkkk
---- WOA THERE !
Lithum based systems need knowledge & understanding. What you knew about Lead, TOSS IT & Forget it !
Learn, understand and do the research BEFORE chucking money at stuff !
KNOW the vendors you are dealing with and be certain you know what you are buying and getting.

This is another thread which will require extended effort that will be fraught with high grief potential. I cannot dive into such a venture at this time, because it's too deep.
 
1) I'm not a fan of Daly but they have both Smart & Dumb BMS' the smart ones are obviously programmable and cost more.
2) If a FET Based BMS like you have is rated for 100A, NEVER go above 80A ! They are rated to their "Edge Case" without margin and FET based NEEDS margin to remain safe & reliable over time.
3) You do not know what the cells are ? Eeekkkk
---- WOA THERE !
Lithum based systems need knowledge & understanding. What you knew about Lead, TOSS IT & Forget it !
Learn, understand and do the research BEFORE chucking money at stuff !
KNOW the vendors you are dealing with and be certain you know what you are buying and getting.

This is another thread which will require extended effort that will be fraught with high grief potential. I cannot dive into such a venture at this time, because it's too deep.
There is a lot of confusion with this technology. And in my opinion much is overpriced. The cells i bought were purchased AS Eve cells from siribatteries or something like that , i am not in front of my Ebay to be totally correct on the spelling. The pull 103ah per bank consistent. No swelling. Etc etc. But the dimensions don't seem to match what i found for EVE so...
 
As far as Daly i did research and apparently its got a thumbs up from 'Will' so now i have two of them. I think lithiums are more advanced than lead acid and agm but i some ways they seem seem a lot more troublesome. All i had to do with deep cycles it parallel connect with 1 guage and let 'er go.
 
@Steve_S, whilst your post is exquisite, I would respectfully challenge your point:

I do agree that a larger capacity battery bank can accept a higher rate of charge, but I don't agree that it has to have a higher rate of charge. For example, if one only consumed 1,000Wh per day, but wanted say 10 days' autonomy with a 10,000Wh battery bank, it is perfectly reasonable to have a 200W PV array and charge at 17A ... whilst the bank could accept 833A, it would still be fully charged at the end of the day with just 17A.

Edit: Corrected typo.
yes but only if the sun is shining . i live in N.E. Ohio and the sun only shines two thirds of the year so i have to make sure i use my solar power wisely. Whatever is my highest power draw in the summer ,say pool pump gets the juice but in the winter my well pump gets it. The biggest drawback of solar is a lack of sunshine ! i also run a pond aerator of a separate 12 volt system for the summer.
 
I can summarize that in one way. Type A personality, A Pure Virgo to boot (Sep 5), 3 Eng degrees, Many years in Military & Federal Service and to top it off a Partially Eidetic Memory (Yes it's good BUT it is also a curse), never forget a damned thing, wish I had known that before joining up to the SSF ! (Special Service Forces).
Thank you for your service and for providing a lot of great information here.
 
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