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LifeP04 meltdown in a Sprinter van ?

Even if you have someone build it, learn how and make sure they do it right. I have two 12 volt 280ah batteries in the back of my crew cab pickup, I researched for months before I came up with a plan I was comfortable with.

In my setup I am driving off pavement with rough roads so felt it a good idea to secure the cells as tightly as possible (11-14psi) with insulating material between. I used flexible buss bars and they are mounted on vibration dampers. I also scan them with a thermal camera regularly when drawing high amps.

And I’ll say it too, thanks for sharing.
 
Hello - Sorry for your loss!

This just confirms that there is always a potential danger using using lithium - the entire safety of the battery is only as good as the BMS which protects it.

Mike
 
Hey all. So…. The culprit - short to the chassis of the van. The corner rubbed on a piece of the frame holding the cells together. I thought I was being smart with how i was securing the cells, but….. not so much on bumpy roads.

I had butyl backing on the case and the road vibrating wore out the butyl at that point over time. I never expected this as an outcome as automotive glass is held in place with Butyl tape….

F*** me! I am a F’ng moran!
Still going to hire someone to overview the battery build and installation.
E9270338-89AF-41C6-9474-D9E9BFFEB013.jpeg
 
Root Cause Analysis.

Primary cause
Chafing of the Cell housing exposing ground plane to the van chassis - When I put the assembly together, I thought it was secure. driving the van caused the cells to rub the box that it was enclosed in. Over time, the cell protection wore away and caused a short.

Secondary contributory
- BMS did not balance cells - The BMS was having problems keeping all the cells balanced. Jar2 was always higher than the other 3 jars, which restricted some flow to Jar 1.
- No Cell warmth - the location of the batteries was under the van and not insulated, nor heated. LiFePo4 do not behave well in 0C and should not be charged/discharged. I was using the batteries while I was driving on the highway in -3C conditions.
- BMS and Xantrex were not properly aligned - The Xantrex XC Pro 3000 has always given me problems. As indicated here - and other forums - the settings on the DALY BMS was much higher then the Xantrex was set to do. Aligning the Xantrex to BMS caused further issues.
- Keeping SOC @ 100% - I have always kept the inverter in float mode and the BMS keeps accepting. LiFePo4 like to stay in 40% SOC only, unless it is actively being used.
-

Actions to mitigate the risk
1) properly securing the batteries from movement - I have purchased from Sunfun a kit that has a battery case that the cells can be put into.
2) BMS with balancing per cell - with the Sunfun kit, they have a 150A BMS with Temp sensor and will monitor and manage only 1 cell per group
3) Addition of Active Balancing board - understanding the variability in cell balancing
4) Unless I am boondocking - while I am home, or at a place where there is shore power, the batteries will be stored at 40% SOC only
5) Adding additional monitoring - while we have the monitoring of the system, we should enable alarms and keeping the system in a very tight window.

So the wife and I will be working with an installer to verify and validate the building of the cells, how it will be tied in, and set up.
I have the SunFun kit on order and will build 4 individual batteries. we also agreed to bring the cells into the van, and with the Simarine solution, I will place a shunt on each battery, with its own Temp sensor. will set up an alarm to trip my car alarm if it goes outside parameters.
we also will set the BMS to float at 40% and stop taking charge past 50% - and will no longer plug the shore power in to charge - use only Solar to keep this up (and honestly may change)
the batteries will also come into the van. Will use 3M to "Blanket" the batteries regardless to make sure they are always warm. Since I have a hot water tank that also uses the coolant system, I may just also add a coolant radiator to blow warm air over the packs.

I will keep everyone updated on how things progress.

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SFK-260 Basic Kit - Built your own Lifepo4 Batteries for RV, Back up Power / Stand by power or power walls using Eve 280 Cells / RCPT / Explor cells. Sunfunkits.com
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Do you have a picture of that corner before the failure? I am having trouble picturing what you are saying.
 
News to me that LifeP04 should be stored at 40% state of charge?

That seems unrealistic and near worthless for home standby, van use, anything.
 
I think he/they mean for storage - as in 'non-use'.
You charge it when you're going to use it.
It doesn't have to be 40% - can be anything 40-70%. Just not empty and not full. Unlike FLA's that need to remain at full charge to keep healthy.
I lot of 'home standby' gets charged to 85-90% and use some of it before recharging, whether daily or on a more spread out energy usage basis.
 
Browneye said:
I think he/they mean for storage - as in 'non-use'.
You charge it when you're going to use it.
It doesn't have to be 40% - can be anything 40-70%. Just not empty and not full. Unlike FLA's that need to remain at full charge to keep healthy.
I lot of 'home standby' gets charged to 85-90% and use some of it before recharging, whether daily or on a more spread out energy usage basis.
Click to expand...
This is correct- if the van is sitting at home or for daily driving, no need to go over 40-70% - and if I go to Costco, just use the fridge on solar/second alternator to run the fridge.
 
Rocksnsalt said:

LiFePo4 - Catastrophic failure.​

Spotted on the sprinter forum today. YIKES! ?
Re will it take a charge, relax… it’s a joke…
Click to expand...
I see a hose nozzle lol. Thats why I keep a fire extinguisher handy. Having been in several fires, you don't need one till you need it, then you REALLY need it.
 
Last edited:
The Dish Doc said:
I see a hose nozzle lol. Thats why I keep a fire extinguisher handy. Having been in several firs, you don't need one till you need it, then you REALLY need it.
Click to expand...
Used a full 10lbs to stop the flames and the ran the shower on the cells to cool them down…. They were cooking and didn’t want to have the others start cascading as well.
 
Browneye said:
I think he/they mean for storage - as in 'non-use'.
You charge it when you're going to use it.
It doesn't have to be 40% - can be anything 40-70%. Just not empty and not full. Unlike FLA's that need to remain at full charge to keep healthy.
I lot of 'home standby' gets charged to 85-90% and use some of it before recharging, whether daily or on a more spread out energy usage basis.
Click to expand...
So, I have a bluetti ac200max which I bought mainly for minimalist use in my van until I build a real system someday.
When in the van, typical use is powering my 12v refrigerator, a fan, and a little 250w 120vac heater a few times. It is typically charged while driving, off 2 factory 12v cig ports at the back of my Sprinter. When parked I charge with a portable solar panel.
I also have used it in my home a couple times when the power was out, selectively powering the refrigerator, internet, microwave, and an induction cooktop. I have also used it regularly to run a 1500w 120v heater, and occassionally a saw… just because I can, charging with solar panels and flipping the bird to the power co... Even if only for an hr or so lol.
I charge it with a few 100w solar panels the next day.
At times it may not be used for a few weeks or more.
I have tended to keep the Bluetti in a high state of charge (96-98%) so it is ready for use.
Are you saying it should NOT be kept over %70 soc during that time of a few weeks of non use?
If so I’ve really missed this info somehow, and that totally defeats the purpose of standby power, or at a minimum substantially reduces available power.

RE “You charge it when you're going to use it.”
Sometimes you don’t have the luxury of knowing when the power will be out.
 
Rocksnsalt said:
RE “You charge it when you're going to use it.”
Sometimes you don’t have the luxury of knowing when the power will be out.
Click to expand...
What was described is near continuous use. Charging daily to 90% is fine for light use and emergency planning. 100% is fine if disaster is expected or eminent. Or if using over 50% of capacity on a daily basis.

Storage at 50% is more for parking it for 3+ months with no expected use and battery disconnected. No emergency requirements.
 
What I understand - and clearly based on the outcome of the fire I may be wrong?
LiFePo4 storage is dependent upon your use case. For me - I have 600W solar on top of the van and the van has a second 280A alternator…. So I am able to stay at 40% and not worry about it…
Someone else may only have 200W and want to stay at 70% so in this case, may want to bump up to 80%

The answer from my colleague - he said for longevity of the cells in my use case - boondock for a few weeks a couple times a year, try not to go over 70% to keep the chemical reaction as innocuous as possible.
If however you are using as a back up in an area where power is consistently inconsistent, run it up to and hold at 95% knowing the offset in readiness is paid for in part by cell longevity.
 
Rocksnsalt said:
So, I have a bluetti ac200max which I bought mainly for minimalist use in my van until I build a real system someday.
When in the van, typical use is powering my 12v refrigerator, a fan, and a little 250w 120vac heater a few times. It is typically charged while driving, off 2 factory 12v cig ports at the back of my Sprinter. When parked I charge with a portable solar panel.
I also have used it in my home a couple times when the power was out, selectively powering the refrigerator, internet, microwave, and an induction cooktop. I have also used it regularly to run a 1500w 120v heater, and occassionally a saw… just because I can, charging with solar panels and flipping the bird to the power co... Even if only for an hr or so lol.
I charge it with a few 100w solar panels the next day.
At times it may not be used for a few weeks or more.
I have tended to keep the Bluetti in a high state of charge (96-98%) so it is ready for use.
Are you saying it should NOT be kept over %70 soc during that time of a few weeks of non use?
If so I’ve really missed this info somehow, and that totally defeats the purpose of standby power, or at a minimum substantially reduces available power.

RE “You charge it when you're going to use it.”
Sometimes you don’t have the luxury of knowing when the power will be out.
Click to expand...

You missed the entire point. Entirely. Oh well. LOL

It is widely accepted and proven that any lithium chemistry battery will degrade if kept at 100% SOC indefinitely. Yes, even your smart phone. They're even setting up charging parameters to take advantage of sleep time, so as not to leave it 100% while you're sleeping. It charges in the middle of the night instead.

For many, a number of cycles or total capacity degradation is outweighed by their usage parameters. It's all a balancing act.

My RV is sitting in the driveway, I don't know when the next trip will be, the pack happily cruising along with SCC on float set to 3.33V/cell, which is about 60-70% charge state. It maintains any parasitic loads, sensors and indicators, the radio and such.

My victron dc-to-dc also runs when I drive, and/or I can plug the unit into shorepower and charge the pack up in very short order at 55A, or at least to 90% or better. I've built in enough redundancy power capacity to not have to rely on the last 10% of my battery pack.

YMMV Bottom line is you do what works for YOU.

BTW, how do you like the Bluetti? I've been thinking about a RiverPro or a Delta Mini, just for occasional use and for home power backup. Super cool technology. I can tell you if I had one it wouldn't necessarily stay at a constant 100% SOC. I would let it run down some before recharging it.

I have over ten-grand in ebikes. They're super cool Giant electric mountain bikes. The charger has a button that sets charging to 60% and terminates charge for 'storage'. When you're going to ride the bike you plug it in and charge it all the way up. Those packs run about a grand to replace. E-bike people tend to rather take good care of their pack - it's the lifeblood of their substantial e-bike investment. Just sayin'.
 
Browneye said:
You missed the entire point. Entirely. Oh well. LOL

It is widely accepted and proven that any lithium chemistry battery will degrade if kept at 100% SOC indefinitely. Yes, even your smart phone. They're even setting up charging parameters to take advantage of sleep time, so as not to leave it 100% while you're sleeping. It charges in the middle of the night instead.

For many, a number of cycles or total capacity degradation is outweighed by their usage parameters. It's all a balancing act.

My RV is sitting in the driveway, I don't know when the next trip will be, the pack happily cruising along with SCC on float set to 3.33V/cell, which is about 60-70% charge state. It maintains any parasitic loads, sensors and indicators, the radio and such.

My victron dc-to-dc also runs when I drive, and/or I can plug the unit into shorepower and charge the pack up in very short order at 55A, or at least to 90% or better. I've built in enough redundancy power capacity to not have to rely on the last 10% of my battery pack.

YMMV Bottom line is you do what works for YOU.

BTW, how do you like the Bluetti? I've been thinking about a RiverPro or a Delta Mini, just for occasional use and for home power backup. Super cool technology. I can tell you if I had one it wouldn't necessarily stay at a constant 100% SOC. I would let it run down some before recharging it.

I have over ten-grand in ebikes. They're super cool Giant electric mountain bikes. The charger has a button that sets charging to 60% and terminates charge for 'storage'. When you're going to ride the bike you plug it in and charge it all the way up. Those packs run about a grand to replace. E-bike people tend to rather take good care of their pack - it's the lifeblood of their substantial e-bike investment. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...
Ok I get it now.
So far the Bluetti is ok but some people are having issues like the smoking one I saw posted here a day or 2 ago.
 
time2roll said:
What was described is near continuous use. Charging daily to 90% is fine for light use and emergency planning. 100% is fine if disaster is expected or eminent. Or if using over 50% of capacity on a daily basis.

Storage at 50% is more for parking it for 3+ months with no expected use and battery disconnected. No emergency requirements.
Click to expand...
Ok this makes sense. Mine won’t be sitting for months.
Thanks
 
I thought the point of 40% would be to limit the "potential" if there is an issue. If you short out an empty battery it will do a lot less damage than if you short out a full one.
 
bgflyguy said:
I thought the point of 40% would be to limit the "potential" if there is an issue. If you short out an empty battery it will do a lot less damage than if you short out a full one.
Click to expand...
The 'potential' is nearly the same if it was 40% or 90%...... ;)
 
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