Schneider XW Pro 6848 Accessories q.'s

Hi,

I've been working on a battery bank for a few months and am ready to make some decisions on the other components of the system. I just rec'd a quote for Schneider components, but am not sure if I really need all the components listed in the quote. Basically, I'm trying to figure out what accessories are necessary, what are v. useful, and what are just kind of nice to have.

The quote lists: 1. Insight Home gateway device AND 2. System Control Panel for XW + and SW

From a quick look, it seems like the gateway device should be enough by itself for my use - I'll mostly be monitoring remotely. Any advice on this?

Also, I have a BMS (REC Q BMS 16S), and don't want to buy the Schneider Battery Monitor unless it's critical. Do you find you need the Schneider Battery Monitor to use the inverter properly?

Last Question: The quote lists the XW Mini Power Distribution Panel. In a few threads, I saw pics of installs with this. Is it a good value?



Some more details about my system in case helpful:
I'll be running ~3Kw of panels in a DC coupled system, then adding another ~3kw next year. Battery will be 48V from Chevy Bolt modules, 14s9p. As for charge controller, I'm leaning towards the Schneider 60 amp charge controller right now, and plan to add another of these along with the additional ~3kw of modules next year.

Thanks!

I have a Gateway and a SCP
The SCP is very handy to use and scroll through. The gateway requires a computer and ethernet connection, I can check something on the SCP much faster than booting a computer and logging into the gateway.
I modify settings with the SCP and monitor the results on the gateway. To do only with the gateway requires many screen changes back and forth.

Once you learn your gear, the battery monitor is pretty useless, I can interpert my battery health / SoC just by looking at the voltage, but that took 2 years to get dialed in.

Thanks for this. It sounds like the battery monitor does not do much in the way of communicating to the inverter and/or charge controller. Does that seem right ? If so, I should have all I need with my REC BMS to learn my battery health/ SoC.

I'll aim to get both gateway and SCP to keep operation straightforward.

I only have a Gateway connected to my XW-Pro inverter. The SCP might come in handy if my system is shut down and I lose power to my home network. This has not been a problem yet, and I always have at least one charged up laptop if I need to connect with no power. I just didn't see a need for the SCP. That money will likely go towards the cost of a Watt Node and/or a Schneider MPPT charge controller. I am torn. I really would prefer Schneider to fix the software bug so that it can properly charge from AC coupling alone, but even if they do fix that, I am seeing why a DC MPPT charge controller and 6 more panels would do me a lot of good, especially once it is real summer here and I need the extra power to run my air conditioner. It is just annoying to have to manually tell the XW-Pro to start charging the battery bank, every morning.

When I do add DC coupled panels, I will use a Schneider MPPT 60-150 for 2 reasons. The main one is that I already have 3 different systems to monitor what is going on, and I do not want to add a third. The second reason is that the Schneider system just plain works better when it has the extra data from a compatible charge controller. I absolutely can't justify the larger 600 volt units. I won't have enough panels to make it worth while. I almost went with a Renogy, but at just $200 less, it is not enough of a savings when you add up the cost of all the other gear. The Schneider MPPT units are very well made, as is the XW-Por inverter. They work together and share the charge status data. I really like that it will be able to be keeping the batteries topped up and supply the power to run the inverter a the same time. Obviously that can't be done in AC coupled.

With the Chevy Bolt Li NMC cells, I think the XW works just fine off of the battery voltage. The voltage climbs pretty linear with state of charge from 20% to 90% so there is no real issue. On the other hand, if I was running LFP cells, I would probably want a Battery Monitor or a connected compatible BMS. The voltage of LFP cells just stays too flat to be able to just use voltage to guess the state of charge.

Thanks v. much, GXMnow. This is really helpful. One thing I was wondering is whether the inverter would have any ability to read battery voltage without the additional battery monitor. It was hard for me to be sure by reading the manual, so this is v useful, especially b/c Schneider tech help is almost unreachable. I'm going to go ahead and order just the gateway - no battery monitor, no SCP. I suppose that I could add these later if I found a real problem. You're also reinforcing my decision to go with the Schneider mppt 60 charge controller. I appreciate the feedback.

That is exactly what I did as well. Buy the minimum XW-pro and the Gateway, and see how it goes. Mine has been working just fine with only those two in my system. I was on the fence about the SCP and Battery Monitor before I got it up and running, but I really have not seen a need for them. If I was in an off grid situation, it might be different. When I did have a power failure, it was fine since I have all of my network gear on the backup loads panel. But if the battery does run too low, and the inverter has to shut down, it could be a big pain getting it back up again when my network is offline. I have not practiced it yet, but my plan is to have my laptop and the gateway powered from a small inverter, maybe from my car if needed, so I can log into the inverter directly so I can lower the battery voltage cutoff to get the system back online once I have sun again to start charging the battery bank. With only AC coupling as I am right now, that is the worst pain. The AC coupled solar can't make any power to help run anything, let along charge the batteries until the local grid in the house has been stable for 5 minutes. I currently have my low voltage cut out at 46.2 volts, which is 3.3 volts per cell. That is a bit too close to the knee. I think I put it down there and left it when I had the power failure. I will up that to 3.5 volts per cell, which should keep a solid 20% remaining. That will give me room to them lower it to 3.3 volts per cell to get the system back up and running. I just tried to adjust it, and it will only let me set it up to 48 volts. That works out to 3.429 volts per cell. That should be good enough. My normal daily cycling which runs my house to 1 AM each night is shutting off at 51 volts and the BMS reports about 58% remaining. The one problem with only having voltage control is that the voltage to state of charge definitely changes depending on the load current and temperature. Having the battery monitor or a connected BMS would give a better state of charge reading. Even in the worst possible case, I will never be discharging any faster than a 0.4C rate. At that slow rate, the cells still hold over 3.4 volts past 80% discharge. If I had more power interruptions, where I needed to use the battery down to near the bottom, I would likely invest in the battery monitor for this reason. And like I had said before, with LFP cell, it is pretty much needed.

I too have just the gateway.
I didn't see the need to be able to manually change the settings. I always have a charged laptop and the desktop is on a UPS.

For the mini PDP. I think it was a good value. It includes the main DC breaker, and the 3 AC breakers. Plus, my system is (will be, it's not yet complete and inspected) all legal, so I had to do something to house the breakers and connections.

I have a CSW 4048 with just a ComBox. I have never missed the SCP.

Insight shows me battery voltage plus much more from anywhere in the world so I never bothered with the battery monitor either. Insight even emails me if certain parameters are breached.

I built my own critical loads subpanel fed @ 240v split phase for a fraction of the cost of the Schneider switchgear.

All their hardware is great, just not cheap.

Great hardware, average software, and crappy support is my opinion.

New to solar, so I just checked all the boxes for Schneider equipment when I ordered.
I don’t have the time or skills to build a custom system, but am learning more every day.

Have had the system up & running for a week now, use the gateway every day.
Battery monitor and SCP don’t seem to have much to offer yet, over the gateway.

Thanks v. much everyone. This is really good confirmation. I'm going to pull the trigger on my inverter/charge controller order probably this week, so v. helpful to have feedback from all of you.

Topics covered or touched upon for those that have better things to do than read long posts:

Extensive testing with the following hardware and configurations:
Conext SW 4048 and XW Pro running older and the most recent firmware.
XW Pro AC coupling via Enphase Microinverters (well not real extensive in this area)
Using 10 and up to 18 - 400w panels in both AC with Enphase IQ7+ micoinverters and DC string modes
AC and DC coupling at the same time with the Pro. (awesome)
Two types of battery packs - 48vdc battery pack composed of 4 generic FLA deep cycle, and another 280ah cells, 16s, Eve LFP (LifePO4)
Conext Battery Monitor (why it's needed for LFP or in a complex Hybrid system)
How to burn up the above battery monitor like I did
Both Export and zero export in all testing
Using the Gateway rather than the Combox with Insight local (you better have three or four display monitors)

Note: I'm no expert. I have a lot of solar equipment with many different types of batteries, inverters, and things to run tests with. I have more hours to work on this than most and I'm going to figure out the details so I can sell LifePO4 based solar storage batteries. I use the Configuration Tool but in most cases it's really not needed. Nice for backing up each devices configuration though and restoring or copying it to another device.

I have been testing the SW 4048 and the XW Pro in a split phase 120/240 scenario. Both were tested with AC coupling with 10 to 15 400w panels running Enphase IQ 7+ microinverters. I initially started using a Combox and a SCP. Later I added the battery monitor and in the beginning I was using 4 generic FLA 12v deep cycle 80ah batteries. Initially I was not impressed with the battery monitor for the price. The main unit weighs about 2 or three ounces when the cables are not hooked to it. Around that same time I added a Conext MPPT 60 150 into the AC coupled system.
Understanding the real relationship the battery monitor has with the batteries, the inverter, and the charge controller was a little of a challenge (actually huge one). I also tested this in a full AC coupling whereas I connected the incoming microinverters to my critical loads panel. This is where Schneider really shines. I will clarify this a little more.

One test I ran was with all of the following:

a. Conext Mppt 60 150 connected to 4 - 400w panels 2 groups of 2 in is series and then I paralleled them together. (2P - 2S) Tied to my batteries.
b. 10 - 400 watt panels using Enphase IQ7+ microinverters programmed to export to the grid.
c. 4 - 12vdc generic deep cycle batteries tied to the XW Pro
d. The interesting twist - AC coupling of 4 - 400w panels running Enphase IQ7+ microinverters in which I had the XW Pro set not to export.
e.

The results from my perspective were spectacular but I only ran the system for a few days while I sat right next to it monitoring it the whole time. The battery monitor in a system like that is almost a critical component. Why? Because it's voltage reading directly from the batteries is deadly accurate and it sends the info to both the charge controller and to the inverter. I have found so far with all three Conext inverters I have used that they do not read VDC accurately. They can easily be so much as .6v off at any moment and that is not acceptable in a hybrid system.

With external meters I monitored every voltage point for variations. Yes, cables, connectors, shunts, circuit breakers, especially current, and everything else in a system like this causes deviations in voltage. Without a Battery Monitor you can almost pull your hair out trying to get your inverter and MPPT charge controller to sync correctly. Using the Battery monitor for SOC can be very helpful but I have found it can be dangerous with LFP batteries in some conditions. If everything is perfect, it works great but you better have countless hours to make everything work and make sure that BMS never loses power because it will default to 75% SOC on a dead or fully charged battery and it will report that to all of your other hardware.

Currently I'm doing extensive testing on the XP Pro with 16 - 280ah Eve cells and I just burned up my Conext Battery Monitor after connecting it just beyond my Daly 250a BMS. BTW, impressive BMS with UART for BT and USB to serial adapter. That has been a lifesaver when LFP cells start to run. But the Conext battery monitor got turned off and back on multiple times by the Daly BMS because I did not have the Conext battery monitor directly on the battery. I had connected it a little farther down the line. Don't do that.

The XW Pro I have is always .4 to .6vdc off compared to actual readings at the battery and at the terminals of the inverter itself. Considering you have less than three volts to work with on a 16s LFP pack set for 80% DOD that inaccuracy is not acceptable. The Battery manager will fix that and I have not found anything else that will other than working countless hours programming your charge cycles until you find a happy medium.

XP Pro has the ability with the most recent firmware to disable SOC while using the Battery Monitor. In the past I was never able to do that. This allows you to setup the charging parameters by voltage rather than SOC. It is said that the XW will always refer to voltage over SOC but my testing has not shown that to be true. I could be wrong but I have seen the XW over charge batteries based upon SOC and not voltage.

Cons of the Conext Battery Manager:
Difficult to press the buttons sometimes
Small display
Setting the function areas that have to be configured through it's control panel (very antiquated)
No external power input for backup. Will run off Xanbus and will run off the battery it's connected to (or so I remember)
Disconnect the battery and power for more than a couple minutes and it will dump all SOC current conditions and then reset to 75%
Very little of it's configuration can be done through the Gateway.
Battery mid point testing is not applicable in many cases.
It has no per cell monitoring as such for any battery chemistry or configuration (yes there are some exceptions)
The way it needs to be mounted does not fit into any normal design. It's interface box is 3" or more deep requiring cutting a hole if you want some form of surface mount.
It's very expensive
Learning curve can be range from minutes to months.

Pro:
It's what you need for complex designs if you want full integration between most Schneider solar based systems. Having a battery reference voltage that is shared throughout your Xanbus network allows for extreme programming configuration in charge and discharge cycles for both AC and DC based coupling and more so with Hybrid configurations.
Very accurate battery voltage and current readings.
Current readings from the shunt can be matched and or reset so that you don't have devices showing random small amounts of current that don't exist.

Warning
For those of you like me that started working with this stuff from scratch you can possibly cook your Combox, Gateway, and especially your Battery Monitor and even your SCP if you make this almost fatal (to the equipment) mistake. I have not figured out all the details yet, and you will get away with this mistake for a few times but it will catch up with you if you are using a Conext Battery Manager and are not aware of it.

All of the devices above use Xanbus among other protocols as well but Xanbus has 12vdc power. So in the process of connecting and disconnecting those devices it is possible you may power up your inverter or your charge controller from one of them. We all know what happens with powering up an inverter or charge controller without using a resistor, or a combination of resistors, diodes, and/or caps, or at least something that reduces that momentary arc while connecting.

The Conext battery monitor when first connected to your batteries will arc severely if your inverter is not on. Why, it will power up your inverter through what I feel is the Xanbus connection meaning very fragile parts are exposed to very high amperage surge. Multiple times I have had this happen and then I added in circuit breakers and didn't see the flash any longer which I feel caused the early EOL for the battery manager.

Looking forward to learning more on this incredible forum. Thanks Will for inspiring the world to acknowledge LifePO4's answer to solar storage for the average DIY guy and providing us this forum to share our experiences.
I would really appreciate some input on how not to cook a Battery Monitor. I have used resistors and that does stop the arcing when connecting the positive or negative power wires to the battery terminals.

I figured I'd ask my ? here rather than start a new thread. I'm planning on adding the Gateway or the new less expensive InsightHome device to my XW+ offgrid system with MPPT 60-150 CC. With the Gateway (or the less expensive InsightHome module) can I remotely change the Bulk, Absorb and Float voltages on my MPPT 60-150?

My system is at our offgrid place in Montana. For over a year now I have been leaving the place powered to run the fridge, Tmobile Home Interent, security cameras, etc. Haven't had any issues. Last January I switched to LifeP04 which I built using 280ah Lischen cells. I like to keep them at or below 60% SOC when the place is vacant to extend the life of the batteries. So I use a mini pc running Teamviewer to log into my Combox. It has been working well until recently. I cannot connect. I suspect the mini pc is not booting up as I can access my cloud based cameras without issue as well as my Orion Jr.2 BMS monitoring module. Now that the sun is setting sooner I need to turn up the voltage on my MPPT60-150

So I want a more reliable way to remotely configure my system. Will the Gateway or InsighHome allow me to remotely change the charging voltage on my MPPT 60-150. Schneider's manuals are not clear on whether configuration can only be done locally or through the Insight Cloud as well.

Thanks.

I went ahead and set up the cloud connection after reading your post.
It would be great to be able to access the system remotely!
My CC is a different model, the Conext MPPT 100A 600Vdc version.
I am using the Conext 865-0329 gateway.
Yes, all those charging parameters can be changed remotely.

pvdude said:

I went ahead and set up the cloud connection after reading your post.
It would be great to be able to access the system remotely!
My CC is a different model, the Conext MPPT 100A 600Vdc version.
I am using the Conext 865-0329 gateway.
Yes, all those charging parameters can be changed remotely.
View attachment 62830

Click to expand...

Thanks Pvdude. Exactly what I was looking for. Hopefully the InsightHome has the same ability. I'm 99% sure it does.

Twas said:

Very little of it's configuration can be done through the Gateway.

Click to expand...

This entire post is pure gold!

If you log directly into the gateway (as opposed to using Insigthcloud) all of these settings are available...

.