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EVE-280 cells should these be clamped tight or spaced for expansion?

I’m of the belief that the corners of a prismatic cell normally Keep their shape and any bulging comes from the large flat sides, the weakest point, which would probably be the center of the cell. By using a full spacer pad, any expansion will have A place of resistance. I chose not to use a solid substrate because during expansion it may cause excessive resistance pressure (I believe usually from the center of the cell) But from everything I’ve read any pressure greater than 17 psi and any part of the cell may cause internal problems.
The correct soft “goldilocks silicone” spacer should meet all compression requirements, and be relatively easy to incorporate in a cell pack. I stated earlier…..to obtain 8psi resistance force, starting approximately 40-50% SOC. I intend to compress them 25% of their thickness, thereby their resistance to expansion of @1mm (according to the liquid silicone foam pad manufacture) will be well within the range of 17 psi resistance.
I just did what the instructions from Eve said to do. Reduce the SOC to about 20%. Then clamp the cells together using no force but just be firm and allow no movement. Now charge them up and they will provide their own clamping pressure. :)
I know it is stupid to follow the instructions from the people that make the cells. But hey. That is how I am. :)

Thanks for the link by the way.
Much appreciated. :)
 
Do you think it’s in the best interest of a Chinese manufacturer to have his product last as long as possible? Well if you do I have a fortune cookie factory I want to sell you so that all your dreams can come true.
 
We haven't exactly gotten complete and detailed information from the manufacturers regarding compression...
AFAIK, the idea of compressing these cells with a certain force had to do with people in the DIY community becoming aware of a few lines mentioned in some of the lifepo4 cell data sheets which described the life cycle testing conditions.
These conditions are very specific and are very different from the type of service that would be expected in a solar storage application.

It does not make sense to simply extrapolate that 300KGf must be the ideal or required factor to gain long life in the use of these cells for our applications, and as far as I am aware(AFAIK in the english language), there hasn't been any specific guidance on that point from EVE, BYD, or similar manufacturers.

Is there some guidance that a factory engineering team has published about what the best way is to constrain or fixture these cells for long term use in solar storage applications? What published "instructions" about these cells are available from the manufacturers?
Straight from the seller. I believe this document is in the archives.
 

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My personal, somewhat limited experience: bought 16 high-quality (I'm told) EVE lf280k from Shenzhen Luyuan. Built four seperate 12v packs, compressed, charged each individual pack with 60a from solar, THEN disassembled, reconfigured, top balanced, then reconfigured again into 12v packs and bound together with 2 heavy zip ties. Never had any bloating at all. Not when empty, not when full, not during 1/5th C charging. One of my packs is built inside a heavy wooden compression rig with threaded rods, but the other packs are either free-standing or built inside milk crates. I now am running two packs in parallel, so charging never gets much above .09 C. Discharging is usually slower, but I sometimes discharge up to .25 C, when I'm using my 1kw heat gun and other household loads. 6 months in operation.
 
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Do you think it’s in the best interest of a Chinese manufacturer to have his product last as long as possible? Well if you do I have a fortune cookie factory I want to sell you so that all your dreams can come true.
Do you really think Chinese supplier will create a defective product and expect you to purchase from them again? No benefit in producing inferior product with internet reviews and demonstrated quality being constantly reviewed. We all know not to buy Littokala now, right? Even someone buying from liito will not do it twice. The only way to get repeat buyers and new buyers is to produce a solid product. If you have an inferior product, you will only sell to bargain-hunting nubes.
 
Flexible Bus Bars if Compressing LiFePO4s ???? I think Frank's LiFePO4 Fire Story Deserves Some Attention on this forum !!!

... I have thought compressing my 8 x 280Ah cells (x 2 or 3 battery banks) would result in cells expanding and contracting at their rectangular cell sides, ... and have thought that solid bus bars would put stress on the battery terminals when such push and shove, and then contraction happens. I have heard comments in other compression thread discussions showing similar thoughts (... just some thoughts). ... I appreciate hearing Frank in Thailand' views because I have seen his story sharing comments over last couple of years showing me lots of experience.

... WOW ... First time I have heard compressing a bloated LiFePO4 could lead to a fire. Re: Frank's "Spontaneous self discharge, one terminal practically molten, lots of damage." Frank : : THANKS for HEADS UP !!! Question: When you mention: "one terminal practically molten" : : Any possibility that molten terminal might have stayed in better shape with a "Flexible Bus Bar"? ... Could Compressing (more, and then more) with Solid Bus Bars make a terminal more susceptible to Spontaneous self discharge, and then spontaneous combustion ??? ... " .... Could solid bus bars on a LiFePO4 set that gets more and more compression (like Frank mentioned), possibly be the cause of a tweak battery terminal (if one did not loosen and re-tighten solid bus bars to reset after each new compression cycle), and then Frank's ... ""Spontaneous self discharge, one terminal practically molten, lots of damage." ??? I am wondering out loud for all of us: Frank: ... Did you loosen, and re-tighten the bus bars on each cycle of your "more and more" compression cycles ??? Wondering Out Loud :+) and with Condolences for that Story.

"Spontaneous Combustion" is something we all (including family and neighbor kids) ... all need to know about, to tweak our habits for safety, especially after paint jobs and deck sealing. IMO: Even oily paper towels in an open plastic trash can under your kitchen counter can cause a fire disaster when no one is there, like those fire created by paint crews leaving their garbage mess at back of building on a wooden deck. ... IMO: Having a small metal trash can for oily trash is a smart in both your shop and home.

... I love learning more all the time, including from other people's mistake. ... While I know I will also be learning from my own mistake ... as the DIYer with my hands on the details ... ;+)
 
ADDED LATER NOTE: after posting this, I got in a personal conversation with Frank about his LiFePO4 FIRE last year; ... then figured out this topic has been thoroughly reviewed / ... I found that 2021 thread by searching for "Fire" with Frank's name. Frank let me know: The Fire was NOT the result of compressing cells while the bus bars were tight. Also saw many possible reasons for the Fire. ... The one I might share was Frank saying: @Will Prowse made a video over bloated cells that he strongly recommend to throw away and never use. With my experience till that time, I challenged that statement, all seemed to be fine, yes? Turns out you are right Will. Bloated cells are not safe. ...

... after study of the older 2021 Fire thread: I would say: I am registering Frank's Fire as him saying ... IMO result of compressing slightly bloated 152AH cells... Spontaneous self discharge, one terminal practically molten, lots of damage. ... Also Picked up Frank's view that those were abused cells; plus older 150Ah lesser cells more susceptible to such mishap, and one of his recent posts said: " ... applied compress some more.. And more.. And.... Fire".

So ... IMO ... Perhaps older Bloated Cells, combined with Compression of those Bloated Cells is a Big No - No to avoid; ... meaning that could possibly cause of a fire. I also just heard another potential angle for a battery fire; ... could also be loose bus bars clamping ... causing big resistance at battery terminal under high amp loads. That's seems like another possible source of heating up enough to possibly ignite a fire ... something to be on top of. ... My Two Cents. ... Thank you Frank for the effort to educate us by sharing all the angles. from ... Bill
 
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Straight from the seller. I believe this document is in the archives.
Again that's not from a manufacturer, and suggests that fibra-taping the pack together is an adequate way to apply compression to the cells....
Although this is "monkey see, monkey do," I look at the videos of the automotive manufacturers assembling packs to go into their vehicles, and they mostly appear to use rigid/welded frames which keep the cells rigidly mounted (preventing movement or swelling) and this would prevent movement that would cause stress on the welded terminals. Until there's something more solid to go on, I'm going to keep trying to emulate this type of configuration.
Do you really think Chinese supplier will create a defective product and expect you to purchase from them again? No benefit in producing inferior product with internet reviews and demonstrated quality being constantly reviewed. We all know not to buy Littokala now, right? Even someone buying from liito will not do it twice. The only way to get repeat buyers and new buyers is to produce a solid product. If you have an inferior product, you will only sell to bargain-hunting nubes.
This makes sense, and the other consideration is that we're only getting scraps left over from industry-- the real customer base is automotive and industrial OEMs that purchase huge quantities of the cells and have large engineering and R and D departments that are no doubt testing these cells independently. If chinese manufacturers were deliberately including some type of planned obsolescense or faulty product, presumably they would quickly find themselves out of business. It would be a no-win scenario for the battery maker.
 
Straight from the seller. I believe this document is in the archives.
As far as I can recall that document was supplied to Amy Wan by another forum member as a favor to her. It's a basic guide and compression is tricky unless using springs. It's good to keep in mind too much compression is worse than no compression.

EVE has made recommendations for compression and there is an abundant of information on this forum regarding that. I don't know of any other manufacturer that has made compression recommendations with regards to aluminum cased cells. :unsure:
 
Do you think it’s in the best interest of a Chinese manufacturer to have his product last as long as possible? Well if you do I have a fortune cookie factory I want to sell you so that all your dreams can come true.
That may be true of some Chinese companies. But I am quite certain battery manufacturers like EVE, CATL, Lishen and the other big ones including Samsung and LG stick by whatever they document in their spec sheets. There have been people post on this forum who have good functioning cells after 10 plus years in service.

I have a pair of Valence batteries and the cells were manufactured in China. They are connected in parallel and still produce 95% capacity even though they are around 10 years old. That is a dream come true and I did not need a fortune cookie to make it happen...:cool:
 
As far as I can recall that document was supplied to Amy Wan by another forum member as a favor to her. It's a basic guide and compression is tricky unless using springs. It's good to keep in mind too much compression is worse than no compression.

EVE has made recommendations for compression and there is an abundant of information on this forum regarding that. I don't know of any other manufacturer that has made compression recommendations with regards to aluminum cased cells. :unsure:

I think I may have been the one that sent it to Amy -- its been so long ago .... i remember when the compression thing came up and i spent a few hours on the phone talking to the EVE designers in China - and quickly realized that each and everyone of them - as you move up the food chain - had their own individual thoughts on compression -- BUT - (and if I remember correctly) the senior SENIOR design engineer, Mr. LiFePO4 himself stated that at 72F with compression, that they saw a noticeable difference in longevity. NOW of course - again - not Black and White -- BUT I do remember that EVE stated to compress their cells when it was in the 45-55 SOC range and I think that someone actually found the newtons or foot/lbs to do it to ...

All I know of of the 1000's of cells we have out here now scattered across NM and Texas - we compress each of them - drop them in a carrier box - hook them up -- and never look back ...

BUT there is a document out there - I will see if i can find it -- its on many of the manufacturers websites -- pretty sure its all been translated to English by now ... but tells exactly what to do and how much to do it ...
 
I’m of the belief that the corners of a prismatic cell normally Keep their shape and any bulging comes from the large flat sides, the weakest point, which would probably be the center of the cell. By using a full spacer pad, any expansion will have A place of resistance. I chose not to use a solid substrate because during expansion it may cause excessive resistance pressure (I believe usually from the center of the cell) But from everything I’ve read any pressure greater than 17 psi and any part of the cell may cause internal problems.
The correct soft “goldilocks silicone” spacer should meet all compression requirements, and be relatively easy to incorporate in a cell pack. I stated earlier…..to obtain 8psi resistance force, starting approximately 40-50% SOC. I intend to compress them 25% of their thickness, thereby their resistance to expansion of @1mm (according to the liquid silicone foam pad manufacture) will be well within the range of 17 psi resistance.
I came to many of the same conclusions as you with regard to the strength of the corners but ended up at a different solution.
I have read all of the specifications on the 270A-304A cells and in none of them do I find the word "compression" What they actually say is "fixture".

I am a Structural Engineer and part of my daily work is to read and interpret specs so that the products are correctly used in my projects. the word "fixture" in a spec has a specific meaning and it is not synonymous with "compression". Fixture is to "fix" or hold in place when subjected to an outside force. Compression on the other hand is to actively apply a pressure to an object. The way that I read the spec is that they want each cell held in place with a "fixture" that is strong enough to not move when subjected to a 300kgf (660-lbs) Given that the cells are about 7" x 8", that works out to 11.8-psi which is less than the 17-psi you mention as a max.

In my build, I am using 3d printed corner spacers that will support all four corners but hold the flat sides 2mm apart. This will then be held together with 1/4" threaded rods with Nyloc nuts to pull plywood end plates so that they are all in snug contact. My plan is to prevent any differential movement between individual cells so that there is as little induced stress as possible in the terminals which are the weakest link. I will then further reduce the remaining stress (thermal and vibration) by the use of flexible multiplate buss bars.
 

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One of the trusted suppliers actually asked EVE about that and it was confirmed that the fixture they used was designed to apply a constant force on the cell, no matter what the SoC was.

Also, I know we should read datasheets using the correct definition for each word but that only works if the datasheet was written in good english, which is usually not the case with Chinese manufacturers (mainly due to how those languages have a very different structure). By "fixture" they really mean "apparatus" here.
 
In my build, I am using 3d printed corner spacers that will support all four corners but hold the flat sides 2mm apart. This will then be held together with 1/4" threaded rods with Nyloc nuts to pull plywood end plates so that they are all in snug contact.

I like your corner pieces. I may take that idea and modify them slightly for my setup. I've already printed the top pieces and added a bit of extra "safety" to them, but need something for the bottom.

Battery Terminal Protector v9.pngIMG_0291.jpgIMG_0292.jpg
 
Here are the drawings I used for the printing. I do not have the stl files.
 

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The way that I read the spec is that they want each cell held in place with a "fixture" that is strong enough to not move when subjected to a 300kgf (660-lbs)
An interesting interpretation. I wonder what would cause a 300kgf load (and subsequent motion) on a cell under test in a laboratory environment?
 
An interesting interpretation. I wonder what would cause a 300kgf load (and subsequent motion) on a cell under test in a laboratory environment?
I would see that coming from the normal expansion of the cell as it nears full charge. The specs say that they should increase in thickness by about .5mm.
 
I would see that coming from the normal expansion of the cell as it nears full charge. The specs say that they should increase in thickness by about .5mm.
Mine are in a spring compression fixture and that's about the amount of expansion I see. Actually slightly less, but in that ballpark.
 
I would see that coming from the normal expansion of the cell as it nears full charge. The specs say that they should increase in thickness by about .5mm.
Yes, they can increase by 0.5mm (0.4mm for my 230 Ah cells), but that is specified under 300+/-20 kgf. If you don't constrain the side walls, you aren't providing that force. Holding by only the corners is not meeting the specification.
 
Mine are in a spring compression fixture and that's about the amount of expansion I see. Actually slightly less, but in that ballpark.
If you are holding the cells in place with springs, then they will move outward due to swelling. If you are using a typical flat buss bar, that movement will create a tention force between each coupled pair of terminals and they are the weakest link. That does not sound too healthy to me.
 
If you are holding the cells in place with springs, then they will move outward due to swelling
I agree for the most part. Many of the "spring" Afficianatos actually calculate the spring force to match or exceed cell expansion criteria to reduce that risk.
 
I agree for the most part. Many of the "spring" Afficianatos actually calculate the spring force to match or exceed cell expansion criteria to reduce that risk.
It doesn't really matter what "spring force" it is rated for because that would be in units of kg/mm which will always by design, allow for movement. That is what springs do. That movement will create tension in the buss bar which will then stress the terminals. I cannot see that as a good thing.
 
One of the trusted suppliers actually asked EVE about that and it was confirmed that the fixture they used was designed to apply a constant force on the cell, no matter what the SoC was.

Also, I know we should read datasheets using the correct definition for each word but that only works if the datasheet was written in good english, which is usually not the case with Chinese manufacturers (mainly due to how those languages have a very different structure). By "fixture" they really mean "apparatus" here.
I know there was a photo posted somewhere of the hydraulic fixture they use for testing. It does apply the same force no matter the SOC. and this came from another source.

I don't know what they mean by fixture. I think the best information we have from EVE came from the conversation ghostwriter had with them.
 
It doesn't really matter what "spring force" it is rated for because that would be in units of kg/mm which will always by design, allow for movement. That is what springs do. That movement will create tension in the buss bar which will then stress the terminals. I cannot see that as a good thing.

You're totally right but the solution to that is easy: flexible busbars.
 

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