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Got Busted by Electrical Power Police..Now Need help with Permits

koppted said:
Can someone explain what is the point of tying to grid anyway without an agreement? If you're looking to offset your bill just run your loads off grid that way you don't get charged for the portion you don't use from your utility. Trying to tie to grid, even if its just for a test seems to be not only waste of time, but it can get you in trouble in a lot of different ways.
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Running off-grid requires more transfer switches, disconnects, bigger inverters, fuses, circuit breakers, more batteries, and major rewriting of your house’s electrical system. Permitting sucks, because more often than not the AHJ doesn’t have a clue what’s going on if you try to DIY.

It’s super tempting just to plug in one of those Chinese inverters that backfeeds a circuit with a suicide cord directly to a wall outlet. Sure, you’ll probably burn down your house, get someone electrocuted, or get in trouble with your utility/law enforcement, but it’s the simplest approach. Literally the path of least resistance since it’s one cord.The Off-Grid Basement guy does this on a smart relay and works well for him as an energy dump.
 
Cyanlite said:
Backfeeding your panel with your grid turned on (without an interconnection agreement) is a crime in most states. You can easily get a lineworker killed.
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I have researched and not found a criminal statute in California. As a general statement, creating a hazard to linemen when the grid is down is probably covered under some statute. But when the grid is up, there is no hazard to linemen. Using a zero export GT inverter seems to be more common and perhaps it is a matter of time in which that scenario will probably be covered in some fashion. Your mileage may vary.
To be clear and consistent with the topic of this thread, there are clear statutes almost everywhere in the US that cover the construction of electrical circuits. As long as one constructs those in accordance with the building codes there does not appear to be any prohibition about generating your own power.
 
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Cyanlite said:
Which part? Backfeeding your panel with your grid turned on (without an interconnection agreement) is a crime in most states. You can easily get a lineworker killed.
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Even when the grid is down I highly doubt you can back feed the grid enough to keep the inverter running for more then a few tenths of a second before the in inverter implodes....you are pretty much powering into a dead short....you are trying to power your whole neighborhood....

Thus the risk to a line worker is nill...
 
Energy price rises in US? in Europe is expansive that offgrid is cheaper than grid.
If feed in to the grid is no allowed, you must go offgrid.
You may tailor your system in accordance of your needs, conductors cross section must be adequate.
I use a quite hi voltage to avoid thick expansive conductors.

If you live in crowded neighborhood fire hazard is a real concern, but can buy cheap land and go truly offgrid.
 
newbostonconst said:
you are pretty much powering into a dead short
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I have heard it described as an iinfinite load which may be the same thing. A true GT inverter would disconnect as soon as it loses the grid but I am not clear what an off grid inverter would do? Most likely, as you suggest, it would implode.
 
740GLE said:
Only utilities with AMI meters and mesh networks. I believe those utilities are in the minority due to costs and dried up 2009 stimulus money.

Just because your meter is digital doesn’t make it “smart” and the utilities aren’t monitoring your usage 24/7. My meter (AMR style) is only read by the utility once a month when a van drives down then street.
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Even way out here in the sticks the meter we have is minute by minute poll.
I assume it’s via Cell polling.
 
newbostonconst said:
Even when the grid is down I highly doubt you can back feed the grid enough to keep the inverter running for more then a few tenths of a second before the in inverter implodes....you are pretty much powering into a dead short....you are trying to power your whole neighborhood....

Thus the risk to a line worker is nill...
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Not true! Part of the IEEE 1547 standard is testing the anti-islanding function on a 60Hz resonant circuit. In the real world, it's possible that the "neighborhood" load resonates at 60Hz, and keeps right on going for longer than the standard allows due to stored energy "elsewhere" in the circuit. The illegally connected inverter just keeps it going for longer.
 
Ampster said:
I have heard it described as an iinfinite load which may be the same thing. A true GT inverter would disconnect as soon as it loses the grid but I am not clear what an off grid inverter would do? Most likely, as you suggest, it would implode.
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It goes into current limit and shuts itself down. However, some of them attempt to auto-restart and that's when a lineman, who has disconnected the line outside your house from the "neighborhood" while looking for the problem, gets shocked as the inverter attempts to restart itself.
 
The AI function in GT inverter will disable it once the grid is down either way. Now an hybrid or off-grid inverter OTOH is a real concern if it's somehow able to export to the grid.
 
newbostonconst said:
Even when the grid is down I highly doubt you can back feed the grid enough to keep the inverter running for more then a few tenths of a second before the in inverter implodes....you are pretty much powering into a dead short....you are trying to power your whole neighborhood....

Thus the risk to a line worker is nill...
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You have no idea what you are stating.
Line power connected to an open grid transmits thousands of volts to the line.
Unless the line transformer connected to your house is disconnected... the common event is lines are down somewhere, and the grid is disconnected at a transmission point. Leaving ALL LINES hot when backfeeding as they repair the short or damage.
 
ncsolarelectric said:
However, some of them attempt to auto-restart and that's when a lineman, who has disconnected the line outside your house from the "neighborhood" while looking for the problem, gets shocked as the inverter attempts to restart itself.
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Just to clarify, as @Wet1 explained, a true GT would not do that but a hybrid could if it was not set up correctly.
 
Cyanlite said:
Which part? Backfeeding your panel with your grid turned on (without an interconnection agreement) is a crime in most states. You can easily get a lineworker killed.
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This is the kind of post that people read and think is true. There is no statute in Arizona. If you could post just one state with a statute on this.
 
Larry185 said:
... after several days the Power police showed up at my door..???? At that point had to unhook them or face fines and penalties.. ..I was told to get a permit from our county and get a permit from my utility provider.. we are in the process of getting the paperwork done as we speak ...
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I am curious about what location and State this happened to ya, and what's the name of Utility Company ?? (as I do not think they all act in that same manner); ... and if your electric grid meter is the newer smart kind of meter, or the older mechanical spinning disc kind of meter ???

Also, to put some ideas in your brainstorming options basket; ... for just two 290-watt Trinasolar panels: One idea I would consider as option to pursuing a legal grid tie is: hook those PV Panels up to a set of batteries with charger and inverter connections, and power some independent system in your yard like lights, gate opener, and/or pool pump. if you want less requirements for yard lights, go with LEDs and low voltage. Just some thoughts for getting em off you back. around where I live in California, heard permits required for roof mounted PV Panels, but not ground mounted PVs (not sure how current that info is?)
 
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Capt Bill said:
I do not think they all act in that same manner
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I agree. On one installation several years ago, my PTO was delayed but the solar part of the install was approved by the building inspector. The GT breaker was inadvertently left on so the GT inverter was back feeding the grid. The meter was recording the backfeed but my understanding was some toggle was not set that allowed the accounting software to see it. I was never contacted by the power company. This persisted for mine months.
 
Utilities have two main concerns with interconnections. First and most obvious is safety. Second is power quality. And with smart meters on all the services in my district, they'll detect an anomaly and be knocking on your door real quick. Your meter will rat you out!
 
Clifton said:
This is the kind of post that people read and think is true. There is no statute in Arizona. If you could post just one state with a statute on this.
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Here's from the State of Illinois

." CAUTION - Please do not operate your system until you receive a signed Certificate of Completion from ComEd. Operation in advance of receiving the signed Certificate of Completion is in violation of Illinois statute and may result in disconnection of electric service. Thank you, Andre Thornton"

So apparently there are statues.
 
Clifton said:
This is the kind of post that people read and think is true. There is no statute in Arizona. If you could post just one state with a statute on this.
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The power lines are not publicly owned. At the very least it's trespassing on lines owned by a corporation. The Federal and State Utility Commission have all the power of a superior court to enforce rules and regulations. Connecting your inverter to their power lines without an agreement is prohibited, but I suggest you ask a laywer about that statute sht.
 
Supervstech said:
You have no idea what you are stating.
Line power connected to an open grid transmits thousands of volts to the line.
Unless the line transformer connected to your house is disconnected... the common event is lines are down somewhere, and the grid is disconnected at a transmission point. Leaving ALL LINES hot when backfeeding as they repair the short or damage.
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Wouldn't the inverter be powering all the homes "downstream" of the downed line though?
 
Ampster said:
At least according to Illinois ComEd. There are fifty states and every state has their own penal code
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So I know two CA Lawyers who have been working in solar with the CPUC, utilities and FERC. I put the question to them to define what statutes control interconnection agreements in CA. I'll get back to you when I get an answer.
 
I know DTE in Michigan showed up within a half hour of my testing my system and back feeding the grid once my permit was approved.

I also mistakenly during that 2008 big power outage flipped the wrong breaker on my 50kwh diesel generator and back feed the grid and it tripped the 200 amp breaker back off in a second.....I really doubt there is a residential inverter that can back feeding the grid and stay running. All you couch/keyboard engineers please prove me wrong....Laughing....don't get offended....I am wrong most times also...Have a great day...

I do agree you shouldn't back feed and even for a split and think the back feed through the step down transformer will become a step up transformer when back feeding creating a quick voltage spike on the high voltage line.
 
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burgerking said:
What if you install a under/over voltage delay relay
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If you install a UL approved GT inverter it will disconnect automatically when the grid is down..Your solution does not work in the case of an off grid inverter because the off grid inverter has no test for the grid and will power the relay allowing the off grid inverter to power the grid.
 
ncsolarelectric said:
I put the question to them to define what statutes control interconnection agreements in CA
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You have already given those statutes in another thread. The operative question in that thread was what statute other than the building code makes it illegal to install a grid tie inverter that is limited to non export. I suspect it is illegal to connect an off grid inverter to the grid. It all depends on how you frame the issue. I do acknowledge in your state that it is illegal as you have said.
 
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Islanding maybe a problem if multiple systems are connected to that section of grid, and provide enough power for local load.
I had that problem with several over 10 kw systems that power an entire street in island status.
In that case total power was around 100kw, if a line man attempts to short the line to ground he risks severe burns.

I do not know grid policies in US, but in Europe registered Pv system owners have almost no commercial rights, grid owners keep all benefit for their own.
 
newbostonconst said:
I know DTE in Michigan showed up within a half hour of my testing my system and back feeding the grid once my permit was approved.

All you couch/keyboard engineers please prove me wrong....Laughing....don't get offended....I am wrong most times also...Have a great day...
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12VoltInstalls said:
That’s an inaccurate part. When stuff shuts down when grid disappears it’s not a hazardous situation
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Without tested equipment, backfeeding may not shutdown.
And backfeeding when grid is down is dangerous.

Sure, as long as the equipment DOES shut down when grid fails it is safe...
 
Supervstech said:
But would still be illegal without a contract.
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In California I can get a building permit for a GT solar system and that permit does not specify that I have to enter into a contract with my power company. If it is operated in a zero export mode it may not be illegal in California. Other states may have different laws.
 
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Ampster said:
In California I can get a building permit for a GT solar system and that permit does not specify that I have to enter into a contract with my powered company. If it is operated in a zero export mode it may not be illegal in California. Other states may have different laws.
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I'll bet you dinner if your equipment is not on this list you don't get a permit.

Solar Equipment List - CA Energy Commission

solarequipment.energy.ca.gov solarequipment.energy.ca.gov
 
Mike 134 said:
I'll bet you dinner if your equipment is not on this list you don't get a permit.
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Correct, to get a permit it has to be on the CEC list. If other states do not have a list I would guess UL listed equipment would be the requirement. A lot of the zero export installs reported here are probably not UL listed and therefore illegal.
 
ncsolarelectric said:
The power lines are not publicly owned. At the very least it's trespassing on lines owned by a corporation. The Federal and State Utility Commission have all the power of a superior court to enforce rules and regulations. Connecting your inverter to their power lines without an agreement is prohibited, but I suggest you ask a laywer about that statute sht.
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some lines are publicly owned. REMC power lines are, or at least were when I left my state back in the day. just because a provider makes a rule does not equate to a law. the only way to actually know is consult your local county or city office and ask to see said "laws" in writing. I would guess the negligence clause would get you generally speaking though.
 
Power companies own easements to every service they provide. It really doesn't matter if there are statutes or laws relating to solar interconnection or not. The power company owns your service, not you. You'll play by their rules or you won't play. And the law is on their side.
 
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