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Colorado utility company locks people out of their thermostats

Vigo said:
I feel this is actually the moral and proper way to think of it.

In general when we pay someone for anything, we are paying for the privilege of not having to deal with a problem or produce a result ourselves.
I would feel bad for the utility if they were a government entity with an 'unfunded mandate', but they aren't. They're allowed to profit, and in return they must provide the service they claim to be selling.

...
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I don't disagree however my philosophy is the more you understand the operation of something the more you can anticipate or check to see if your expectations of functionality are reasonable. For instance living remote like I do I do not expect to be the first person to regain electrical power in the case of a large area failure. I would not call up the utility demanding them get my power back on now! I know that heavily populated areas and vital services like hospitals get first priority.

I also like to know enough on anything I am paying for to check if the costs are fair. There is a reason that a lot of women and some men get cheated by auto repair shops.

Finally I have found in life that too much trust is as bad as no trust.

As an addendum, why is there so much hatred for utility companies? They do a dang good job of providing a 24/7/365 day service. It is not an easy task.
 
Our utility had a program 40 years ago to put a remote control on the electric water heater and pool pumps.
They could shut these off whenever they needed to.
Not a problem for us, we received a small $$$ discount on our bill, and were never inconvenienced by these being powered off.
Odd, but true - that utility was bought by another, then that utility was bought, etc.
The current utility still gives a discount on our bill, but has either lost the ability to operate the devices connected to our appliances, or no longer knows they exist.
 
740GLE said:
Supply doesn’t meet demand + a major transmission line contingency, then imports can’t support deficits, voltage reduction only gets you 2-3% load reduction, then rolling black outs of scheduled dumping of load, if that doesn’t solve the issue voltage collapse, frequency becomes unstable and relays start automatically operating (under frequency load shead) to try and save it but in the end it’d be like the 2003 blackout. All due to a transmission line fault in Ohio due to poor tree trimming and a frozen realtime contingency analysis system, then NY is dark.
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pvdude said:
Our utility had a program 40 years ago to put a remote control on the electric water heater and pool pumps.
They could shut these off whenever they needed to.
Not a problem for us, we received a small $$$ discount on our bill, and were never inconvenienced by these being powered off.
Odd, but true - that utility was bought by another, then that utility was bought, etc.
The current utility still gives a discount on our bill, but has either lost the ability to operate the devices connected to our appliances, or no longer knows they exist.
Click to expand...
I certainly have an “ interest “ in how my electricity is generated. But that’s about the height of it.

I see the grid as a national infrastructure and to me if their are failings , then these should be laid at the door of the utilities regulator and ultimately the gov minister and his department.

No more then I don’t “ prep “ for the roads becoming impassable , I don’t prep for the grid to fail , it’s hasn’t failed since it’s inception in 1925 , and I see no reason it will collapse now or tomorrow either. I have wood fired heating by preference and gas cooking by preference so a few candles would see us through a disruption . Politically any major sustained failure of the grid would have such enormous consequences the state would (re) nationalise the whole energy system and go into emergency mode.

Hence I see little advantage to any further “ prepping “ for something that ain’t going to happen.
 
I'm in Colorado so I'm fairly "close" to the situation. There are two methods the power company is using to manage load. Both methods have been mentioned in the thread. The method that started the thread is that they control the thermostat. I have the second method installed and the power company simply prevents the outside unit from coming on. The inside fan will run just fine, which helps to circulate air.

We get a measly $25 annual credit. I don't think we've ever noticed that the air conditioning isn't working good enough. The house is fairly well insulated and the trees help shade the house a bit.

What bothers me about the situation that started the thread is that a homeowner with a PV system was locked out. Their PV generation likely covered whatever load the air conditioning put on the system.

As stated multiple times in the thread, if you don't like the program, get out. Money from ________ is great until you actually have to work for it.
 
Not sure why anyone would give control of an appliance to the grid. ,I can understand tarrif based incentives but if I want the house cooler at 4pm , ain’t no one going to stop me.
 
Mattb4 said:
As an addendum, why is there so much hatred for utility companies? They do a dang good job of providing a 24/7/365 day service. It is not an easy task.
Click to expand...
Have you heard of PGE, the fires they started, and people who died because of them?

Combine that with their blatant profits before safety: "One was a 2008 table that listed “Corporate Business Priorities.” The first was increasing EPS, or earnings per share. Fifth and last on the list was safety performance."

Source: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/PG-E-squeezed-safety-for-profit-sake-documents-8346817.php
 
Goboatingnow said:
Why would a grid collapse
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Situation Normal ...

Vigo said:
I would feel bad for the utility if they were a government entity with an 'unfunded mandate', but they aren't. They're allowed to profit, and in return they must provide the service they claim to be selling.
Click to expand...

And yet it has at times been an unfunded mandate.
Some years ago the government decided to replace monopoly power generation/distribution with competitive market. They forced PG&E to sell off its power plants, buy power from competitive market, sell power to consumers at a fixed low cost. So consumers bought power at $0.10/kWh to run A/C and be comfortable, while producers discovered they had no need to bids low to meet demand, because demand was 100% of aggregate production. PG&E had to pay $1.00/kWh


Vigo said:
In a for-profit environment, it is THEIR PROBLEM to produce results. I don't feel anyone should be looked down upon for not giving one crap what it takes the utility to pull it off. We pay them for service, not excuses, and not to get roped into their problems. We're paying to NOT HAVE their problems.
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PG&E requests permission to cut back trees from power lines, and the regulatory agency refuses.
All fires sparked by power equipment are the financial responsibility of PG&E, regardless of negligence.
PG&E also made decisions not to do maintenance at times.
One time PG&E requested permission to replace old equipment. Someone on regulatory board said continuing to operate until it failed would yield lowest cost power.

Government complained when PG&E did power safety shutoffs to avoid even more fires. PG&E said, "OK, YOU decide when we should shut off." Government refused.
 
HighTechLab said:
at your own risk, forcefully turn on the cooling:

Pull the T-stat off the wall. Use alligator clip jumpers to connect "R" to "G" (turns on fan) then connect "R" to "Y" (sometimes also Y1). Do note, that you are now the temperature controller.

Note: does not work for super fancy thermostats like the ones for the Lennox variable speed units, but does work for the remaining 90% of systems out there.
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Or you could just get the cheapest t-stat at the local big box store? Or... do some of these folks have to the old stat in box laying around the house? It does beg the question as to how reverse proof this change is?

We do of lot of work on various commercial energy conservation programs and there's language in there about the removed equipment cannot be be resold or reinstalled. Obviously they don't want to incentive changes that can be easily undone. I will say the post project inspection are terribly lacking but I do think that's about to changes.
 
Mattb4 said:
As an addendum, why is there so much hatred for utility companies? They do a dang good job of providing a 24/7/365 day service. It is not an easy task.
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I totally agree.

We've been watching a scene play out locally with a guy who got all bent out of shape for reasons I don't think anyone but him know. He's made his fair share of scenes at city council meetings, etc. Anyway, he got himself one of them fancy DC Solar Trailers and told the local utility "to come get his meter". It now appears that he didn't fully understand that 2.5kW of PV stood no chance at meeting his energy usage.

Neighbors have filed numerous complaints about the constant noise of the generator so now he can't run it after 10pm.

After a month of pouring 20 gallons of diesel a day into the on-board Kubota gennie he's decided he might not be so mad at them after all. But.... they are now making him bring his 30 year old service up to modern standards before they reconnect him. How about that for nice big ole helping of karma? :ROFLMAO:
 
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Mattb4 said:
As an addendum, why is there so much hatred for utility companies? They do a dang good job of providing a 24/7/365 day service. It is not an easy task.
Click to expand...

I like the work they do in delivering power and restoring service.
But some regulatory proposals are entirely self-serving.
What they requested for California NEM 3.0 was for rooftop PV owners to pay the utility net money for all power delivered into the grid. And pay for power consumed as it was produced by PV.
Earlier NEM rules were such that if someone installed PV producing half the power their A/C consumed, electric bill went up not down.
The goal should be to reduce fossil fuel consumption, substituting with PV and other renewable sources. Then redistribute system costs in a fair manner.
 
Hedges said:
I like the work they do in delivering power and restoring service.
But some regulatory proposals are entirely self-serving.
What they requested for California NEM 3.0 was for rooftop PV owners to pay the utility net money for all power delivered into the grid. And pay for power consumed as it was produced by PV.
Earlier NEM rules were such that if someone installed PV producing half the power their A/C consumed, electric bill went up not down.
The goal should be to reduce fossil fuel consumption, substituting with PV and other renewable sources. Then redistribute system costs in a fair manner.
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Frankly I would not blame the utility companies one bit for not allowing a single individual to have net metering. The fact it was forced by government mandate was wrong. Everyone else has to pay for those that get special treatment.

Heck the Federal and some State governments is forcing utilities to buy more expensive power to meet some strange goal of being "Green". Those costs inevitably are passed on to the consumer. Some that are happy to pay more in theory for protecting the unicorns but tend to sqwack when they see the higher monthly electric Bill.
 
I think the pandemic especially has proven that ‘just in time production’ is a great way to lose your a$$ when a butterfly flaps its wings halfway around the world.

The grid has essentially ALWAYS functioned as ‘just in time’ production, and up til now they had perfectly good excuses, but it’s always been more fragile than i think was common knowledge. We’re in the era now where it’s no longer truly acceptable to have an entire electrical grid reliant on instantaneous production, but still waiting for the slow integration of grid scale storage. Up til now it seems like a lot of utilities have mostly been reactionary to solar and the proliferation of EVs, just legislating to maximize the waning years of an outdated model instead of proactivey organizing to try to standardize enough of the ‘new energy’ that we could have real ‘vehicle to grid’ integration so that utilities saw that energy transition as a business opportunity instead of a threat.
 
No more then I don’t “ prep “ for the roads becoming impassable , I don’t prep for the grid to fail , it’s hasn’t failed since it’s inception in 1925 , and I see no reason it will collapse now or tomorrow either. I have wood fired heating by preference and gas cooking by preference so a few candles would see us through a disruption . Politically any major sustained failure of the grid would have such enormous consequences the state would (re) nationalise the whole energy system and go into emergency mode.
Click to expand...
On some level i agree with you but i think you might be surprised how much of a house of cards the grid can be and how in the event of mismanagement or failure of some hardware it can actually ‘destroy itself’ to a degree that no government intervention can do anything about, and would take potentially weeks or more to return to operation. About the only thing the government would do in that situation is unleash a river of money to the people who screwed it up in the first place, and send the national guard to make sure the people keep their complaints down to an acceptable level through some good ole american Threats Of Violence.

Anyway, check out this interesting video about a near-catastrophe.
 
I watched a 'Fully Charged Show' video today that pointed out an interesting contradiction in "cost sharing" that is happening in Great Britain. Admittedly they have far more options for how you pay for power, but my local utility has a similar 'community solar' program that gave me pause for thought.

So apparently, for years, if you wanted to be 'Green' you could pay extra to have your power sourced from the renewable market rather than the general fossil fuel power market. The power is all combined on the same grid, but at the time, the renewables cost more per kwh and I imagine this was a way of keeping their introduction on to the grid politically palatable to people who didn't want to pay for them.

However, now in Europe the script has flipped. Natural gas prices have gone through the roof. Much of Great Britain's electricity on the fossil fuel side comes from natural gas, so electricity prices are way up. However, the video noted that the people who paid for years to use electricity from renewable sources were seeing the same increases as everyone else. Why should this be the case? The cost of wind power didn't suddenly spike.

So if renewables are more expensive the people who want them should pay more. And if renewables are cheaper, "We're all in this together."

(I would apologize for the excessive use of quotation marks in this post, but they are a renewable resource :))
 
OzSolar said:
I totally agree.

We've been watching a scene play out locally with a guy who got all bent out of shape for reasons I don't think anyone but him know. He's made his fair share of scenes at city council meetings, etc. Anyway, he got himself one of them fancy DC Solar Trailers and told the local utility "to come get his meter". It now appears that he didn't fully understand that 2.5kW of PV stood no chance at meeting his energy usage.

Neighbors have filed numerous complaints about the constant noise of the generator so now he can't run it after 10pm.

After a month of pouring 20 gallons of diesel a day into the on-board Kubota gennie he's decided he might not be so mad at them after all. But.... they are now making him bring his 30 year old service up to modern standards before they reconnect him. How about that for nice big ole helping of karma? :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
Don’t poke a bear unless your sure you can kick its ass ..
 
HRTKD said:
What bothers me about the situation that started the thread is that a homeowner with a PV system was locked out. Their PV generation likely covered whatever load the air conditioning put on the system.
Click to expand...
What PV system is generating from 4pm until 9pm?

Just a guess, If the PV system is a net metered (my assumption) they are already receiving a subsidy covered by the other rate payers they can’t “double dip” by claiming another subsidy.

PV systems are typically the reason why afternoon prices are crazy high.

Now if the PV system has a battery and no net meter subsidy, I agree it shouldn’t be black listed.
 
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Mattb4 said:
As an addendum, why is there so much hatred for utility companies? They do a dang good job of providing a 24/7/365 day service. It is not an easy task.
Click to expand...

There is hatred for most monopolies, whether it's a necessary monopoly or not.
 
Jim H said:
Unvalidated hatred is generally just jealousy or ignorance.
Click to expand...
Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. I can't think of many utilities that are loved, whether they provide necessary services at reasonable costs or not.
 
it’s not the power company per se , they are just working folks like all of us…..it the top dogs than run it and the politicians getting power drunk .. that start all the political crap…it’s a sickness .. and it spreads … and it recruits as it spreads..

any tool that will help rule , will become a usefull tool…

.Thank all the high school hall monitors you knew, that found their way into public service and politics..
they just couldn’t wait to pontificate to the masses… the dumb masses… and set them straight in life.
There’s the problem…
 
cs1234 said:
Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. I can't think of many utilities that are loved, whether they provide necessary services at reasonable costs or not.
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I don’t blame you at all .. your just the reporter in the street… party on Garth….
 
cs1234 said:
There is hatred for most monopolies, whether it's a necessary monopoly or not.
Click to expand...
I don't have nearly the problem with municipal owned utilities that basically work for the people at no profit long term. Love our water company.
The CA utilities that are investor owned just increases the cost and incentive to increase what can get pulled out. Also the fight against home solar has given them a black eye.
 
740GLE said:
PV systems are typically the reason why afternoon prices are crazy high.
Click to expand...

PV did not increase the cost of afternoon power. PV reduced it.
The highest total demand from grid is mid-afternoon. PV contributes to power production at that time. More cheaply than the alternatives.
Growth of PV probably let utilities get away with not installing as much generation.
Today, if you subtract PV generation from total consumption, the peak of remaining power generation occurs early evening.

All PV did was reduce the daily kWh market share of natural gas peaker plants. They have the same fixed costs, reduced utilization and reduced fuel costs.
 
cs1234 said:
Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. I can't think of many utilities that are loved, whether they provide necessary services at reasonable costs or not.
Click to expand...
Having been without power in 1989 for 4- 5 weeks , in 90 degree heat, I love my power company.. I love them dearly…
but I still keep my eye on the top dogs of the outfit…
ya would have to have been there to understand…

peace ,love ,happiness… J.
 
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