Electric company has it figured out

[mgdean]

I got a notice from the electrical company that in February my connection fee would be increasing from $30 dollars a month to $45. Did not think much about it and when the bill arrived. I knew they had it figured out. Power is cheap in this area $.12 kW From Feb 2023 to Feb 2024, I doubled my battery and solar capacity. So I was happy to see that my usage dropped by 66%, exported 152kW to the grid (100% increase over 2023, but only worth $3 bucks, crappy net metering agreement). So after all of that my bill only dropped 2.3%. I never did this because i wanted to save money on my electric bill, but I now understand the electric company has found ways to keep my bill the same regardless of how much energy I generate.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I got a notice from the electrical company that in February my connection fee would be increasing from $30 dollars a month to $45. Did not think much about it and when the bill arrived. I knew they had it figured out. Power is cheap in this area $.12 kW From Feb 2023 to Feb 2024, I doubled my battery and solar capacity. So I was happy to see that my usage dropped by 66%, exported 152kW to the grid (100% increase over 2023, but only worth $3 bucks, crappy net metering agreement). So after all of that my bill only dropped 2.3%. I never did this because i wanted to save money on my electric bill, but I now understand the electric company has found ways to keep my bill the same regardless of how much energy I generate.

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Yup. Mines been $45 month for at least 3 years.

We don’t do net metering.
Just use what we make and in the winter we will pull from the grid what we need.

The grid is still cheaper than the Generator at the moment.

 

[LydMekk]

My fees, tax, meter rent (ofc...) etc. sums to around 45 Euro per month.
Consumption comes on top.

 

[1201]

I got a notice from the electrical company that in February my connection fee would be increasing from $30 dollars a month to $45. Did not think much about it and when the bill arrived. I knew they had it figured out. Power is cheap in this area $.12 kW From Feb 2023 to Feb 2024, I doubled my battery and solar capacity. So I was happy to see that my usage dropped by 66%, exported 152kW to the grid (100% increase over 2023, but only worth $3 bucks, crappy net metering agreement). So after all of that my bill only dropped 2.3%. I never did this because i wanted to save money on my electric bill, but I now understand the electric company has found ways to keep my bill the same regardless of how much energy I generate.

View attachment 201138

It dropped 2.3% but in reality what would it have been without solar? Thats the real comparison

 

[scoharri]

Cut the cord and go off grid!

 

[Steve_S]

Many Power Co's, have realized that they can pay you peanuts for the power you send to grid and then compensate by increasing connection & delivery fees to reduce their outlay as such.

Considering you went from 502kWh to 162kWh - just how much would it take to "zero that out" ?
Bit more solar & battery ? Another inverter ?

What is your most Power Hungry Month ?
Can you generate that ? Potentially with upgrades ??

Consider if you go totally offgrid, and no longer have any Monthly Power Co Hostage fees (even @ $50 a month is 600 for the year eh) it may be prudent to sit down with a calculator and ponder it.

 

[Mattb4]

...

Consider if you go totally offgrid, and no longer have any Monthly Power Co Hostage fees (even @ $50 a month is 600 for the year eh) it may be prudent to sit down with a calculator and ponder it.

Thankfully I don't live in such an area but some places require you have utilities in order to occupy your home. So you either pay for electricity, water and sewer or your home gets red tagged as unfit for habitation.

My grid is presently about $24/mo before any kWh charges. This is quite a bit higher than the $12/mo that I started with 25 years back. However at the 8-10 cents per kWh charge it is still cheaper backup electricity than any gas fueled generator. My only concern is if the Co-Op decides that those of us with solar must have an interconnect agreement (even if no upfeed is possible) and all the Bells and Whistles to accomplish it.

 

[reader2580]

Did they single you out for having solar, or did they just raise the fees for everyone? I don’t think it is called net metering if you’re not get paid full retail for the power you send to the grid.

 

[rhino]

I got a notice from the electrical company that in February my connection fee would be increasing from $30 dollars a month to $45.

Do you know where exactly they are getting their power from? I assume this is a co-op? I wonder if there has been some widespread push for this by co-ops since my co-op in northern Minnesota did same thing and implemented it last month as well! Mine went to $46 if you include taxes (which you should when stating what monthly base fee is). This is one of the reasons why I had utility company come out and start removing all their equipment last Friday.

 

[marionw]

Research, research and research.

What are the state laws for net metering? Is your net metering also affected by the total exported kw.

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The Public Utility Regulatory Policies Act of 1978 (PURPA)

 

[hwy17]

Power bills have been playing pretend, to everybody's detriment.

It's a service that really costs like half to deliver and half to generate. More or less depending on the area.

But, back in the day when it was the only option we figured hey, the average guy all uses about the same amount of power, let's just bury the infrastructure cost in the kwh pricing that's easy for people to understand.

It has this built in equity mechanism too. The rich guy wants to use lot of power, so he pays more towards the distribution, an outsized share. And if someone's struggling, they can cut back and they'll end up paying an undersized share. Accidental, hidden, income based pricing.

Now, when the richer people find this thing called self generation, the illusion breaks. The power company has to admit the kwh's weren't actually worth the price they were charging, so losing sales is breaking the budget, and then they have two choices. Stick with the broken model and jack up rates on the remaining poor and middle class customers to make up for the attrition, or come clean and redesign the pricing scheme so that fixed costs are billed in fixed fees and kwh's are realistically valued at their incremental cost.

When the pricing is converted to reflect reality, the real value of solar is revealed to be a lot less than it seemed before. What value it does have, can be way more efficiently achieved at utility scale.

 

[1201]

Power bills have been playing pretend, to everybody's detriment.

It's a service that really costs like half to deliver and half to generate. More or less depending on the area.

But, back in the day when it was the only option we figured hey, the average guy all uses about the same amount of power, let's just bury the infrastructure cost in the kwh pricing that's easy for people to understand.

It has this built in equity mechanism too. The rich guy wants to use lot of power, so he pays more towards the distribution, an outsized share. And if someone's struggling, they can cut back and they'll end up paying an undersized share. Accidental, hidden, income based pricing.

Now, when the richer people find this thing called self generation, the illusion breaks. The power company has to admit the kwh's weren't actually worth the price they were charging, so losing sales is breaking the budget, and then they have two choices. Stick with the broken model and jack up rates on the remaining poor and middle class customers to make up for the attrition, or come clean and redesign the pricing scheme so that fixed costs are billed in fixed fees and kwh's are realistically valued at their incremental cost.

When the pricing is converted to reflect reality, the real value of solar is revealed to be a lot less than it seemed before. What value it does have, can be way more efficiently achieved at utility scale.

Eventually, as pricing for solar and battery keeps dropping, and as utilities keep hiking prices, the "richer" people will completely go off grid and the everyone else will be paying some hellacious prices.

Only a matter of time

 

[hwy17]

Eventually, as pricing for solar and battery keeps dropping, and as utilities keep hiking prices, the "richer" people will completely go off grid and the everyone else will be paying some hellacious prices.

Only a matter of time

Yes, I didn't want to write a novel by moving on to cover end game defection.

At that point everybody decides if they're going to prop up the grid with public funding or if they'd rather enjoy the collapse of civilization.

I know you instead envision some kind of breakaway success where everybody moves off grid and it's all ok again, or it's even better. I don't though. This shit is either expensive or takes one of us types to run it, and we're only like idk, 10% of the population.

 

[1201]

Yes, I didn't want to write a novel by moving on to cover end game defection.

At that point everybody decides if they're going to prop up the grid with public funding or if they'd rather enjoy the collapse of civilization.

I know you instead envision some kind of breakaway success where everybody moves off grid and it's all ok again, or it's even better. I don't though. This shit is either expensive or takes one of us types to run it, and we're only like idk, 10% of the population.

Now we're only 10% is the population but when the prices and fees are right we will become 100% is the population and use the sun.

People fought to keep the horse and carriage too, I'm sure.

 

[hwy17]

Now we're only 10% is the population but when the prices and fees are right we will become 100% is the population and use the sun.

People fought to keep the horse and carriage too, I'm sure.

It takes one of us + the money + the time to design, build, and operate an economic and reliable off grid system.

When the grid starts failing the people who don't have all three of those factors they can't magically engineer themselves out of the problem. They just get driven further down and out of reach of it.

And I'd figure only 20, maybe 25% even have the aptitude for it with the opportunity. Some people's brains just don't work this way.

 

[1201]

It takes one of us + the money + the time to design, build, and operate an economic and reliable off grid system.

When the grid starts failing the people who don't have all three of those factors they can't magically engineer themselves out of the problem. They just get driven further down and out of reach of it.

Now it does. In a few years it will be accessible to anyone

 

[hwy17]

Now it does. In a few years it will be accessible to anyone

Lifestyles would regress and the poor would be reduced to living in chronic power shortage. Burning whatever they can find for heat again, unless we're assuming the gas grid stays in good shape while the electric grid is collapsing.

We are at the tip of this capability and we're still aware that heating is in most cases an out of reach goal.

 

[Consumerbot3418]

I got a notice from the electrical company that in February my connection fee would be increasing

I knew they had it figured out.

Yep, exactly. My local co-op has raised their "availability charge" by nearly 100% in just 2 years, while dropping per kWh rates. They've also had ads in their "free" monthly magazine urging members to contact their politicians about unfair net metering. (aside: I do agree that net metering is unfair and unsustainable in the long run. Was a good way to get solar started, though)

When the grid starts failing

Texans and Californians have already experienced it. The more unreliable the grid, the more incentive for people to stop relying on it.

At that point everybody decides if they're going to prop up the grid with public funding or if they'd rather enjoy the collapse of civilization.

Same case can be made about welfare/food stamps. Although I can see both sides of the argument, the case you make sounds almost like a protection racket.

 

[hwy17]

Texans and Californians have already experienced it. The more unreliable the grid, the more incentive for people to stop relying on it.

Yes and California is in a financial grid death spiral because of the perverse pricing incentives. 99% of solar customers including DIY are pretenders, crawling back to the grid in winter.

 

[Consumerbot3418]

My only concern is if the Co-Op decides that those of us with solar must have an interconnect agreement (even if no upfeed is possible) and all the Bells and Whistles to accomplish it.

I got a phone call from co-op asking if I had solar, since my usage had basically gone down to zero. I confessed I did, but explained that the system was isolated from the grid, connected like a backup generator. Guy from the co-op said that's fine, but I couldn't connect an inverter to the grid at all under any circumstances (even if no backfeed) without jumping through all their grid-tie rules. Engineered drawings, state inspection, the whole 9 yards. He said they'd want to come inspect my interlock used to isolate the system, but haven't followed up after all this time.

99% of solar customers including DIY are pretenders, crawling back to the grid in winter.

In my location, with wood heating, 95% of the winter is pretty easily done with off-grid solar. Gotta fill that last gap with diesel genset, or fall back on the grid. I pretended the grid wasn't there, but nearly failed, since the diesel generator was needed when temperatures were close to 0ºF, and the fuel had gelled. I find summer off-grid is actually more difficult than winter, though, with A/C units running overnight...