Confusion on meaning of Off Grid vs Grid-tie vs Zero Export
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timselectric
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A hybrid AIO in any mode, requires an agreement with the utility company.
timselectric
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Off-grid does not run in parallel with the grid. And can not export to the grid because of this.
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
I am obtaining a Bldg Permit. That was never in question, and I understand completely why.
And I really do appreciate you responding to this. I've seen this & when shared with PGE, PGE pointed to the third bullet on Page 2 and the corresponding last row in the table at the bottom of page, which states that:
"PG&E Interconnection Requirements: Interconnection to PG&E’s grid is governed by both federal and state regulations for safety and reliability. All solar and renewable backup power systems must connect to the PG&E grid. Customers may need to notify PG&E or work with their qualified electrician or contractor to complete PG&E’s Interconnection Application..."
And because I have a solar array, I must now have an interconnection agreement even if I choose to have a "Break before Make" switch.
How do you read it? I argued that a "Break before Make" essentially makes the system a black box, regardless of what's inside. They said that's now how they read it.
I ask "What do you think?" knowing that it won't matter to PGE. But I feel that this is purely centralized controlling bureaucracy.
timselectric
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That's an interconnect agreement.
An off-grid system doesn't interconnect.
An off-grid system doesn't interconnect.
timselectric
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Maybe I missed it, but what inverter do you have?
This will tell us if you need an agreement.
This will tell us if you need an agreement.
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
My current permit submission is with an EG4 18kPV (i.e.: a hybrid)
However, I can still add the "Break before Make" switch between the utility and the inverter.
So it should not matter which inverter is used). If you disagree, can you explain why?
Also, did you reference the document @Ampster linked? It would help with the context of the contradiction by PGE.
Again, thank you for your help.
OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
Hybrid AIOs are not the same as Off Grid AIOs. An off-grid AIOs does not have 'switches' or 'software' settings to connect their output to the grid. There is no path for the AC generated to reach the grid. An example of an off-grid AIO is an MPP Solar 3048LV unit - I have one in my trailer. An off-grid AIO may take in grid but will not push out to the grid.
I agree that a Hybrid AIO (like Sol Ark) is different and I'm not up what they do exactly as all my equipment and experience is 100% off-grid. However, I'm guessing you can wire a Hybrid AIO such as Sol Ark as 'off-grid mode' where there's no physical wiring to send AC out to the grid.... Maybe someone can clarify this.
A critical loads panel is typically a physical sub-panel (not physically part of an AIO) that's used as a mechanism to separate circuits from the main panel so the incoming power to the sub-panel can come from different (selectable) sources - grid, or generator, or off-grid power as examples. This is what I ment above when I said one can take a home circuit and disconnect it from the main panel and power it from off-grid power. An MTS is an example of a critical loads sub-panel that let's you choose the source of power for individual circuits instead of all or nothing.
You can think of an Off Grid AIO as working like this.....
Grid ------> AIO ----- charge battery ----> battery -----> inverter ---> AC output ---> home circuits (critical load sub-panel perhaps)
Solar ----->
Thus, it's easy for an off-grid AIO to have built-in ATS/UPS because it can invert from the battery all the time.... so if the grid goes down (and there's no solar panel power) the battery is no longer being charged but that doesn't affect the battery --> inverter ---> AC output until the battery runs down.
Yes, an off-grid AIO can have an option to bypass (the battery) but then it's....
Grid ---> AIO ---> home circuits (critical load sub-panel perhaps)
In no case is the off-grid AIO AC output making it's way back to the grid as can happen in grid-tie.
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timselectric
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If connected to the grid it would require an agreement.
Correct, that would not require an agreement. But it's pointless to spend the extra money for a hybrid, if you are not going to use the hybrid features.
You would be better off buying an off-grid AIO, for less money.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
i think that bullet is inconsistent language and I am interpreting it that an intercoonnection is not required. Clearly the table below that bullet point saya "No" in all three columns under the heading, "PG&E Interconnedtion Application Reguired". No means no applicaiton required and I chose my own interpretation of what I perceive as clear language versus asking some PG&E employee. It is a calculated risk which I have chosen to take.
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dougbert
Solar Wizard
I am in Utah with a Muni PoCo
I have a hybrid XW Pro whose grid IN circuit has it's breaker off. l love the surge and large out of balance features of this inverter - I don't like the price of getting the 2nd inverter. I use the Chargeverter to charge my battery from the grid, if low SoC and low Sun as you do as well. If I were in Kalifornia again, I would NOT grid connect the inverter at all (I do not like Netmetering) and run the XW Pro off grid. It is not connected to the grid except through the battery and back through the Chargeverter (won't compute that way)
Would they want my meter removed for that case?
today, I would go for the 12000XP or the NHX10k and also not connect grid to their INPUT port, Chargeverter all the way (after Sun charging of course)
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Haaa….you guys can debate most anything to infinity ..I love it…!
… I call my system off grid…because it has no connection to the grid and powers my place 9 months a years with no outside source.
It means if my battery’s can’t supply the power , there won’t be any power till the sun comes back up..
It works once you realize how to use the power you have , and no more…
Is that offgrid ???
PS …I don’t intend to ask or tell anybody for permission, for nothin.. or tell em what I’m doing…
.. I bought it…I hooked it all up ..it powers my dwelling ..it’s mine …period …!
I guess if they come throw me in the slammer , I may reconsider my position…but only then.
J.
… I call my system off grid…because it has no connection to the grid and powers my place 9 months a years with no outside source.
It means if my battery’s can’t supply the power , there won’t be any power till the sun comes back up..
It works once you realize how to use the power you have , and no more…
Is that offgrid ???
PS …I don’t intend to ask or tell anybody for permission, for nothin.. or tell em what I’m doing…
.. I bought it…I hooked it all up ..it powers my dwelling ..it’s mine …period …!
I guess if they come throw me in the slammer , I may reconsider my position…but only then.
J.
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
BTW, I did the math: 3014 messages since Mar 15, 2020 = 1706 days or ~2msgs/d...
.
I really like the phrase "there won’t be any power till the sun comes back up.. It works once you realize how to use the power you have , and no more…"
And then for the rest...
...
I’m thrilled I could make your day …thank you..
J.
timselectric
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Your system is not connected in parallel with the grid. You don't need any agreement with the utility company.
timselectric
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There are 3 types of solar systems.
Grid-tied
Off-grid
Hybrid
A grid-tied system uses the grid to store excess production.
An off-grid system uses batteries to store excess production.
A hybrid is a combination of both above.
Grid-tied and hybrid systems require an agreement to connect to the grid.
Off-grid systems do not.
Grid-tied
Off-grid
Hybrid
A grid-tied system uses the grid to store excess production.
An off-grid system uses batteries to store excess production.
A hybrid is a combination of both above.
Grid-tied and hybrid systems require an agreement to connect to the grid.
Off-grid systems do not.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
The exception to that is in California, at least in PG&E a non export system does not need an interconnection agreement. I know of several installations under NEM 2.0 which have added battery back systems without an interconnection agreement.
dougbert
Solar Wizard
thanks for the concise definitions and the current state of things in Kalifornia. I hope they do NOT move toward the direction of: IF you have solar of any kind, you must register with us
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
1201
Solar Wizard
It CANNOT be an unauthorized interconnection if you are not interconnected.
dougbert
Solar Wizard
I am thinking that the PoCo's believe/think that all home solar systems MUST connect to the grid because that is how it has always (lol) been like that - thus the "rules". it is a "divide by zero" event if anyone does it differently
1201
Solar Wizard
Nope. Not their business.
dougbert
Solar Wizard
fully agree - but in their mind's view ................
1201
Solar Wizard
No actually they are quite clear about it. If a system is interconnected without authorization they will pull the meter. That means it has to be interconnected. If its not interconnected then its not their business
timselectric
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That's very surprising. California is usually the most stringent (PITA) for everything. I'm assuming that in this case "non export" means a hybrid system, set to zero export?
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