This makes so much sense. How is it that you can whip up these readable diagrams in no time, yet nearly every manufacturer of DIY solar/inverter equipment can't get it done in any amount of time?
This makes so much sense. How is it that you can whip up these readable diagrams in no time, yet nearly every manufacturer of DIY solar/inverter equipment can't get it done in any amount of time?
So if one did a "mobile" setup, like in a utility trailer, with no shore power would the ground still connect to the chassis and would that be considered a "floating ground/neutral"?Correct. It was drawn for a stationary off-grid set-up. In a vehicle, it would be a chassis connection instead of a grounding electrode.
Yes, If there is no shore power, then just do a bond in the distribution panel and tie the AC ground to the chassis.So if one did a "mobile" setup, like in a utility trailer, with no shore power would the ground still connect to the chassis and would that be considered a "floating ground/neutral"?
I have been doing these drawing long enough and have a large enough libray of drawings that I can usually just modify something I already have to quickly generate a new layout.How is it that you can whip up these readable diagrams in no time, yet nearly every manufacturer of DIY solar/inverter equipment can't get it done in any amount of time?
It seems like with one Victron inverter the dynamic switching would be correct when the installation includes an AC IN and bypass mode, but with two inverters in parallel and only one switched, two ground paths would exist, one via the switched Victron bonded neutral and one via the bonded neutral at the main panel where the inverters are connected to that panel via the AC IN and the inverters are in inverter mode (not bypass).
If there's an NGB at the main panel, then both inverters should have NGB relay open as they never need to provide it.
I am digesting the comments. The nec is the nec. From town to town doesn’t jive.. the ahj should be following the same codesThe local requirements can change from one town to the next town over, so I can understand and accept why a manufacturer would act as Vctron does. What is different about Victron is that you can clearly understand how their system works and someone can build safely when armed with that information. The lack of documentation is what bugs me about MPP, EG4, and Growatt. They do not provide the information needed to know what is necessary to make it safe and/or meet the code requirements. If they would just clearly state what is supported and how the product works, a competent person can figure out if it can be used in a safe way that meets the code requirments.
Several points:I am digesting the comments. The nec is the nec. From town to town doesn’t jive.. the ahj should be following the same codes
BTW: A great example of a local jurisdiction adding rules is the California Approved Equipment list. An installation could be 100% compliant with the NEC and use nothing but UL-listed components but not pass inspection if the inverter is not on the state-approved list.Several points:
1) Each state will adopt a new version of the NEC at a different time. Right now, most of the country is a mix of NEC 2017 and NEC 2020. However, In some states, the code is only adopted by local jurisdictions. Missouri is particularly crazy:
View attachment 127241
Kansas City Mo is on NEC 2011, but Independence Mo borders Kansas City and it is on NEC 2017
2) In addition to the different versions of the NEC, jurisdictions can and sometimes do create additional rules or exceptions.
3) As if the above is not bad enough, one inspector will often interpret the NEC differently than the next.
The basics are pretty similar throughout the country, but as soon as you get into subtle details or the parts of the code that changes (such as solar and batteries), things can be different from one town to the next.
Since Victron is an international company, they also have to deal with differences from country to country.
Thanks for this and and you are correct. I was working on a diagram but yours are way better, and depict what I’m referring to.I like diagrams of what we are talking about..... because statements like that can be correct or incorrect depending on what it is refering to.
@MillAlien made a comment about needing to remove both bonds when there are multiple Victrons. I assume he was referring to a drawing like this:
View attachment 127228
In this set-up, when in pass-through, neither victron should create a bond. However, when on battery, the Victrons disconnect neutral so one and only one of the Victrons should create a bond.
I do not know if Victron supports common neutral, but assuming they do support common neutral it could be wired like this:
View attachment 127229
With this arrangement, the bond in the main breaker box is always 'visible' to all parts of the circuit. Therefor, neither Victron should ever generate a bond.
First, am I using the term “AC-bypass” correctly? Reference the diagram, I’m meaning that the Critical Load Box is fed directly from the Main Breaker Box - the AC hots are is bypassing the inverter and the neutral and ground are passing through.
I am not sure what you mean by neutral floating. In this mode, the neutral is passed through from input to output and no N-G bond is created by the inverter. However neutral is not floating because of the N-G bond in the main breaker box.(A) When the inverters are in AC-bypass both have neutral floating - the neutral-bond switches in both inverters are open and the neutrals are passed through to the Critical Load box.
First: Keep in mind that this is not the way a Multiplus would normally be set up. I don't even know if Victron supports it.(B) What I’m not understanding is the second diagram - what’s the purpose of creating a neutral bond at the inverters? Bond neutral at the battery source while using the same earth ground connection at the Main panel so that there’s still just one path the ground?
This is always true...... except when it is not true.Perhaps this is confusing me because with a genset transfer switch, the neutral passes through unstitched, the genset should be floating neutral, and the only neutral bond should be at the Main panel and not at a sub panel fed by the transfer switch or at the genset
My terminology/vocabulary probably falls short here … I’m referring to what you’re referring to - no N-G bond in the inverter. In AC generators, I think this is referred to as “floating”…?I am not sure what you mean by neutral floating.
This is the crux of the biscuit…I‘ve got two Multiplus II-3000s on the way for split phse install and the reason this thread caught my attention is that the vendor (Current Connections) is reported to ship the inverters pre-configured, including the switched NGB on one inverter for inverter mode. That’s what I read anyway - I need to check w CC on this. If that wasn’t the case, then this question probably would have passed me by.First: Keep in mind that this is not the way a Multiplus would normally be set up. I don't even know if Victron supports it.
Exactly. I was gonna qualify my statement but, … this is a real trap for the unwary DIY homeowner (e.g., me) since some generators are bonded, some aren’t, in some situations that’s ok, and in others, it’s not.This is always true...... except when it is not true.![]()
Hi Filter Guy,OK folks I am increasingly convinced this model of the inverter is reasonably accurate:
View attachment 127195
* The output transformer acts as an isolation transformer in inverter mode and an autotransformer in bypass mode
* The neutral is generated by the center tap in both modes
* There is no dynamic bonding
Since the NEC requires the neutral of an autotransformer be tied back to the neutral of the original power source the system should be hooked up like this:
View attachment 127198
This creates a common-neutral layout so the only bond needed in the system is the Main System Bond in the Main Breaker Box
Wow..... 195V between output Neutral and ground is crazy!!!Hi Filter Guy,
Just saw this thread - sorry for joining this conversation late. I just installed an off grid (no AC input) EG4 6000EX and am struggling with the NG bond issue as well. I've attached my wiring diagram that's based on one of your diagrams. I'm measuring 195V between output neutral and ground! Bonding the neutral to ground at the panel causes an overcurrent surge fault in the inverter. Also measuring ground currents of 1.3A and 0.3A in two of my EGCs.
My primary load is a Juicebox EV charger or the Tesla universal mobile charger - neither charger works with the inverter and they both fault when I plug them in. I'm guessing it's because of the missing NG bond in my panel or the inverter is not internally bonded. I'm wondering if the 195V is because my ground rod is around 10 ft away from the buried copper cold water pipe that serves as the main service panel cold water pipe ground?
I previously got the Tesla charger to work (the Juicebox kept faulting) previously with a Growatt 5000, where the critical loads panel was bonded to the main service panel ground. I realize that created a double NG bond, but it was the only way I could get the Tesla charger to work. I ended up bricking the Growatt during a firmware update and replaced it with the 6000EX.
Thanks for all your reference documents that you created - very useful information. FYI, I'm a retired electrical engineering professor and a former 22 year resident of Los Gatos.
If the panel is bonded and the inverter is bonded, the case of the inverter and the panel can have voltage potential and be hot. This is due to the inverter having a case G to the output/input G. For the panel, the shell is bonded to G thru the bonding screw.They say you can have ground loops but I am not so convinced. If the run from the inverter to panel is short I would not worry about it.
But a single ground rod or 2 placed no more than 6/10 feet apart and firmly connected together is very important.
No. 55V is what one typically sees with a floating neutral. 99% of the time that is an induced voltage with almost no power behind it. As soon as the NG bond is installed it will drop to zero and my bet is that there will be nearly no detectable current between the inverter neutral and the ground.Can the 55 V NG voltage drive current back to the grid via the main panel bonded neutral/ground since I'm planning on using the main panel ground for my off-grid system ground?
Good Question.Question 3: Currently, my battery (3x LifePower4 - 48V) negative terminals are not connected to system ground. I noticed in Filter Guy's grounding guide that the batt negative terminal (BMS negative) should be grounded. I assume 10 ga wire is OK since this is to establish a common ground reference and the main battery- current is carried in my 4/0 cables from my battery bus bars to the inverter?
But, wait why are my LED lights still ghostingWell I'm glad this is all clear now, lol this takes care of at least one of may issues.
But wait! Why are my LED lights ghostingWell I'm glad this is all clear now, lol this takes care of at least one of may issues.
But, wait why are my LED lights still ghosting
But wait! Why are my LED lights ghosting
Update on my 6000EX neutral/ground and EV charging issues (see attached wiring diagram):No. 55V is what one typically sees with a floating neutral. 99% of the time that is an induced voltage with almost no power behind it. As soon as the NG bond is installed it will drop to zero and my bet is that there will be nearly no detectable current between the inverter neutral and the ground.
Good Question.
Strictly speaking, it is required by the NEC. However, many (most?) people don't do it.
We have never gotten a clear answer from EG4 (Or signiture solar) on this. Based on testing done by various forum members we believe that it does NOT have an internal ground. (Your results are in line with that assessment)still don't know if the 6000EX has an internal bond or not
Do you now have the grid hooked up to the input of the inverter or is the input to the inverter still unused? If the only thing hooked up between the two systems is a grounding wire, you probably do not have multiple NG bonds.Now that I'm using the main service panel ground AND I had to bond the NG in my output panel to the main service ground, I have a double neutral ground bond