What makes the tier 1 stuff “better”?

Nan_wpg said:

Sounds like you work / worked at MidNIte?

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SpongeboB Sinewave is Bob Gudgel, Worked at Trace, then Xantrex then with his brother Robin started Outback in 2001 and the MX60 was his design, then founded Midnight Solar in 2005 again with family. He is the longest and most prolific designer for the US solar products I know of.

Checkthisout said:

Victron is India for almost everything although I noticed they rebadged the MT-50 and use it to access their PWM controllers.

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victron is highly regarded and considered tier 1. so China can make good stuff. Or is it over priced?

Solar Guppy said:

SpongeboB Sinewave is Bob Gudgel, Worked at Trace, then Xantrex then with his brother Robin started Outback in 2001 and the MX60 was his design, then founded Midnight Solar in 2005 again with family. He is the longest and most prolific designer for the US solar products I know of.

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Good to know. Nice to see actual company people in forums for support.

Nan_wpg said:

victron is highly regarded and considered tier 1. so China can make good stuff. Or is it over priced?

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Important to differentiate a company that is designing and specing a product to be built and then maybe setting up their own factory in a foreign country to take advantage of lax environmental laws and cheap labor.

Vs a Chinese company that has stolen IP from these companies and is now making their own stuff.

They go through the motions without understanding the why and they also don't care.

I can only guess but the made in America stuff probably uses Chinese components but they maybe uses beefy, oversized fets bolted on as sub-assembly and then of course American software.

Americans and Europeans are very good at software.

Checkthisout said:

Important to differentiate a company that is designing and specing a product to be built and then maybe setting up their own factory in a foreign country to take advantage of lax environmental laws and cheap labor.

Vs a Chinese company that has stolen IP from these companies and is now making their own stuff.

They go through the motions without understanding the why and they also don't care.

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All good points

When I wrote the Outback is a clean install, that included the fact that the 15 year old inverter I pulled out and then installed the latest model inverter without any interface issues; nice. The human interaction unit had to be replaced and that was easy as well. The updated UI is more user friendly to initialize, and monitoring the system is straightforward. I am actually still using the 15 year old Outback charge controller. I would say Tier 1 products.

Why Tier 1 Midnite for me? Because (among many other reasons) show me any other tier whatever manufacturer and actual product designers that are on this forum (and other forums) and answers questions directly. It doesn't happen much.

Checkthisout said:

Victron is India for almost everything although I noticed they rebadged the MT-50 and use it to access their PWM controllers.

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Yes, a lot has gone to India. Schneider and OutBack Power, too. They do OK, mostly. I'm sure they use a lot of Chinese parts. We all have to.

We are all dependent on China for a lot of parts but there are other problems with building products here in the US... Mainly, the 25% tariffs (tax) on those parts from China. Parts that are NOT made in the US such as good electrolytic capacitors come from China (with the 25% tariff)

Neither Taiwan, Japan nor India have those. Our microcontrollers and power MOSFETS that we use do not come from China. There may be some small jellybean variety of transistors from China though. Also some custom plastics and PCBs as far as I am aware come from China. Some raw PCBs may come from Taiwan ? Who even knows where most of the resistors come from ? Some, I'm sure, do come from China. Also some custom plastics and PCBs, etc.

We do buy as much locally as we can like sheet metal and other hardware and stuff. Some of the best aluminum castings in the world come from Thailand. China does OK in that area too and tooling is cheap cheap cheap. Still, 25% tariffs from China on that stuff.

Complete products like our re-branded Chinese DIY inverters have little to no tariffs. 6% I think they. It would be much cheaper to just have our entire products built in China and shipped here boxed and ready to sell. But we like manufacturing here and having control over things. It is hard to find good experienced technical people though. Electronics manufacturing here is just not as prevalent as it used to be. It was much easier to manufacture here 30+ years ago. Our support people are pretty knowledgeable. But for those jobs, they can nowadays work remotely, wherever they are comfortable being. Luckily.

We know the Morningstar and Victron people. We even build a couple of simple items for them or are working on them. No electronics though.

I have attached a few pictures. One is the new inverter line (The Rosie) and a couple of guys testing one of our new remote MNGP2.
To give you an idea of manufacturing issues that come up, we are starting to use a new UV cure conformal coating system. The UV is so intense, that it tends to melt certain components if they are not covered. Even the microcontroller is having a problem being partially erased of its factory ROM through the package ! So it has to be covered with a piece of copper tape and the affected processors have to be replaced and reprogrammed. Took a few days to figure all that out. Plus, the automatic programmable conformal coating machine that normally puts the coating on just broke and has some parts that will not be available until this summer and so we have to paint the CC on by hand. It isn't easy to always do this properly because the coating can get on things that it shouldn't get on. And this is real tough stuff and hard to remove ! Then, we spent a day figuring out why the KID was having intermittent static on the LCD and found that new MOSFETs needed a change in drive resistance. Now how closely would THOSE to things be related ? That took a day to find what it was all about. These are just a small part of the perils of manufacturing issues that come up on, say, a weekly or sometimes daily basis. But we keep going ! Also a picture of a 3D printed cover for the Rosie to keep conformal coating out of the wrong places. Designed in a couple hours and was ready the next day.

And one pic in our "homeless shelter" where we do some testing with real PV here when it is sunny. We also use PV simulators and other power supplies.

I wish this stuff was as easy as when we were designing and manufacturing audio gear.

boB

It was good for a manufacturer to share some of the staffing challenges they are going through.

My mechanics shop is having difficulty finding another mechanic who wants to work.

A tire shop I went to this week is understaffed due to difficulty finding workers.

Last night I walked into a restaurant which posted an apology sign because 5 employees decided not to come to work.

A family member is an assistant manager for a fast food restaurant. They continue to have difficulty finding employees who want to report to work as scheduled.

As I write this a manager for a dining facility stated they just can not retain workers even though they are the highest paying in the area.

Many of us grew up with a strong work ethic. However that does not appear to be the norm in today’s world. I fully support made in USA. However unless companies are fully staffed at a reasonable price it will probably become more and more difficult to find these products.

12VoltInstalls said:

There’s reasonable means of ascertaining use life with volume products on sites like here. And you have parts available.
If a $1000 inverter needs a <$200 part in four years or a $2500 set dies in year 6 of a 5-year warranty…

You made a calculated risk not a gamble. I think you chose pretty well.

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Well, let's see In my area there's a ton of Trace and Xantrex inverters running strong after 20 years. Their C series charge controllers apparently last forever, My Midnite Classic charge controller has been running nonstop for 10 years now. There you have the difference between top tier equipment and anything lesser where you accept repairs/death any time after the warranty.

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I live off-grid, quite rural & remote and the "grid" is over $75,000 away and staying put where it is.
I decided to go fully solar quite early on, immediately upon seeing the "on grid" quite from Big Power...
Being Ex Military & a retired IT Engineer, I knew the only way for me to go was to use Tier-1 equipment right from the start which led to my installing Midnite Classic SCC & at first I installed a Yiyen Inverter/Charger (budget issues) which I upgraded to a Samlex EVO within a year. Where I live, the conditions can be quite extreme and I had to have something that I could rely on because quite literally my life depends on a reliable system, half assed measures are simply not an option. I go to sleep every night knowing I'm good and don't have to worry.

I have never had any hardware issues with the Midnite Gear at all, and I use their MNDC E-Panels, Breakers, SPD's etc.... It's wonderfully solid equipment, I've been "inside" there and can easily identify the high quality componentry used, high quality PCB work and even looking at the soldering it's easy to tell it's all made really well to a high spec. I'm now adding another classic (150) which only needs 6x 395W Q-Cells to give me 94A charge amps. Running 24V btw.

My Samlex EVO is also extremely rock solid, I did have one electrical fault that resulted in a failure. They put a replacement unit on a plane and I had it within a couple of days. After they ripped apart the Inverter that faulted the problem was discovered and it was truly a "fluke" situation and they still took extra time to ensure such a fluke would not happen again with production models, even though it was a fluke. I've been into the Inverter guts as well and like Midnite, the componentry and assembly are very high spec... Again this is a Tier-1 Product.

Both Samlex & Midnite have excellent "professional" support and do very well across the board. Even so, there are always a few "sad sacks" who will never be happy for whatever reason (such is life).

If only we could get a BMS Manufacturer that could do the same at a respectable price.

I also want to add that there is an Ironic Funny in a sense (not for the victims of course)
As I stated above, I will be soon installing another Midnite Classic in parallel with my existing C-200. The C-150 will give me 94A from SIX 395 Panels 2S3P, yet people here are running at AIO's and buying a crap load more panels to get similar charge rates thereby negating savings... I got my new C-150 for under $700 USD and my panels (Q-Cells) for a very respectable price as well. Some folks (too many) forget how to use a Calculator and to consider their long term costs.

Midnite Solar CLASSIC 150 MPPT Charge Controller from Stellavolta on Amazon.com $669.98 USD

Steve_S said:

Midnite Solar CLASSIC 150 MPPT Charge Controller from Stellavolta on Amazon.com $669.98 USD

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And a shameless plug for my work from 2005 for $690 on Amazon

In a world of disposable electronics, the fact that Outback, Midniite and Schneider ( Xantrex ) are still sold to this day is impressive.

I will draw a parallel.

The car I drive was purchased used with 183,000 miles. I paid more for it because it would likely be considered Tier 1.

Recently the odometer topped 324,000 miles and with proper maintenance continues to serve me well.

I have purposely omitted the car brand but the meaning is the same. When I chose my equipment I saved my pennies for a long time before making a purchase. I want products that have a proven track record.

Yes I know there are no guarantees in today’s world but when I read report after report from satisfied customers of many years then it gets my attention.

I have a 400 watt inexpensive inverter in my basement for emergencies only.

I fully respect the right to choose ones own path.

Admittedly I paid more. Personally it helps me sleep better at night. When I build something I like to include provisions that exceed specifications. It is the way I approach all my projects. It has taken me a long time relatively speaking to get there and is still not finished. However I feel fortunate to have the resources of this forum where I can benefit from the best and brightest in the field.

Steve_S said:

I live off-grid, quite rural & remote and the "grid" is over $75,000 away

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Such a painful but accurate way of measuring distance.

Steve_S said:

The C-150 will give me 94A from SIX 395 Panels 2S3P, yet people here are running at AIO's and buying a crap load more panels to get similar charge rates thereby negating savings... I got my new C-150 for under $700 USD and my panels (Q-Cells) for a very respectable price as well. Some folks (too many) forget how to use a Calculator and to consider their long term costs.

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I'm pretty sure part of the difference here is just 24 volts vs 48 volts. That's twice as many panels to get the same battery current.
I'm not sure if you were getting at the number of panels or choosing a budget AIO. Totally agree on the budget AIO.

JJJJ said:

It was good for a manufacturer to share some of the staffing challenges they are going through.

My mechanics shop is having difficulty finding another mechanic who wants to work.

A tire shop I went to this week is understaffed due to difficulty finding workers.

Last night I walked into a restaurant which posted an apology sign because 5 employees decided not to come to work.

A family member is an assistant manager for a fast food restaurant. They continue to have difficulty finding employees who want to report to work as scheduled.

As I write this a manager for a dining facility stated they just can not retain workers even though they are the highest paying in the area.

Many of us grew up with a strong work ethic. However that does not appear to be the norm in today’s world. I fully support made in USA. However unless companies are fully staffed at a reasonable price it will probably become more and more difficult to find these products.

Click to expand...

I’m in Canada. We had Covid lockdowns and restaurant employees were deemed second class people and told to stay home. Many of those people decided to find ‘“essential” employment. It didn’t help that our government paid people to stay at home.

I can’t say I blame the workers. I’d never go back to an industry that could be shut down like that.

but yes, overall the youngins seem to not want to work, and those that do want “easy” jobs (non physical ) or would rather stay at home to smoke pot and play video games all day. (Canada legalized pot so that makes it easy to be bored).

Steve_S said:

I live off-grid, quite rural & remote and the "grid" is over $75,000 away and staying put where it is.
I decided to go fully solar quite early on, immediately upon seeing the "on grid" quite from Big Power...
Being Ex Military & a retired IT Engineer, I knew the only way for me to go was to use Tier-1 equipment right from the start which led to my installing Midnite Classic SCC & at first I installed a Yiyen Inverter/Charger (budget issues) which I upgraded to a Samlex EVO within a year. Where I live, the conditions can be quite extreme and I had to have something that I could rely on because quite literally my life depends on a reliable system, half assed measures are simply not an option. I go to sleep every night knowing I'm good and don't have to worry.

I have never had any hardware issues with the Midnite Gear at all, and I use their MNDC E-Panels, Breakers, SPD's etc.... It's wonderfully solid equipment, I've been "inside" there and can easily identify the high quality componentry used, high quality PCB work and even looking at the soldering it's easy to tell it's all made really well to a high spec. I'm now adding another classic (150) which only needs 6x 395W Q-Cells to give me 94A charge amps. Running 24V btw.

My Samlex EVO is also extremely rock solid, I did have one electrical fault that resulted in a failure. They put a replacement unit on a plane and I had it within a couple of days. After they ripped apart the Inverter that faulted the problem was discovered and it was truly a "fluke" situation and they still took extra time to ensure such a fluke would not happen again with production models, even though it was a fluke. I've been into the Inverter guts as well and like Midnite, the componentry and assembly are very high spec... Again this is a Tier-1 Product.

Both Samlex & Midnite have excellent "professional" support and do very well across the board. Even so, there are always a few "sad sacks" who will never be happy for whatever reason (such is life).

If only we could get a BMS Manufacturer that could do the same at a respectable price.

I also want to add that there is an Ironic Funny in a sense (not for the victims of course)
As I stated above, I will be soon installing another Midnite Classic in parallel with my existing C-200. The C-150 will give me 94A from SIX 395 Panels 2S3P, yet people here are running at AIO's and buying a crap load more panels to get similar charge rates thereby negating savings... I got my new C-150 for under $700 USD and my panels (Q-Cells) for a very respectable price as well. Some folks (too many) forget how to use a Calculator and to consider their long term costs.

Midnite Solar CLASSIC 150 MPPT Charge Controller from Stellavolta on Amazon.com $669.98 USD

Click to expand...

im leaning toward a lfp battery (rack) and Morningstar inverter and cc. I do have my eye on the samlex evo 4048 inverter charger. It even has a cc input. It’d be a nice clean instal. It sounds like you’re totally happy with samlex?

Nan_wpg said:

im leaning toward a lfp battery (rack) and Morningstar inverter and cc. I do have my eye on the samlex evo 4048 inverter charger. It even has a cc input. It’d be a nice clean instal. It sounds like you’re totally happy with samlex?

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The Samlex is an excellent product and yes, I am happy with it.
They have not made their ModBus & CanBus protocol stacks publicly available and there is no software / app to connect to them for management or monitoring. THAT is really a downer.

Nan_wpg said:

(Canada legalized pot so that makes it easy to be bored).

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? …which begs the question: are they bored and turn to getting high, or did getting high create a self-inflicted boredom? LOL
In my opinion either are cultural tragedies.
(the neurology of marijuana use and relevant psychology are pretty interesting scientifically. I have enough trouble without adding cannabis products to the mix. Changing behavior offers more benefits and zero ancillary risk(s). My opinion)

Might as well open the hood of that MidniteSolar back panel behind the Outback 24V 3500W inverter:



Know that this is 15 years ago installed, before I replaced the lightning arrestors with MidniteSolar SPD’s. Two screws and front cover (behind inverter) swings open for access.