Which battery’s for daily use

Bozzydogg02 · Oct 17, 2023

Hi,

I’m finally adding new battery’s to my system (5 x 100w solar panels in series with photonic universe 150 v solar controller) and having wasted quite a lot of money last time buying batteries that weren’t fit for the job I’m hoping to get some expert advice on what to go for this time.

My options are between:

victron gel agm 90 ah x 2

Or

Victron VRLA agm 110 ah x 2

We have a:

5 v usb port
2 x 5 v lights

I’m going to be adding:

250 w victron inverter (ditching the 4000w one we currently have)
12 v cigarette charging port
Diesel heater
400 w wind turbine

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, I hope there’s enough info to help form opinions.

Thanks

yodamota · Oct 17, 2023

what about filling this spread sheet out. It would give you what you will need. https://diysolarforum.com/resources/system-energy-audit-and-sizing-spread-sheet.12/

Solarcabin Channel · Oct 17, 2023

What is your load or what are you planning to run?

I would go with at least 200Ah and maybe 300Ah with 500 watts of solar but depends on how you are using it.

MisterSandals · Oct 17, 2023

Bozzydogg02 said:
victron gel agm 90 ah x 2

Or

Victron VRLA agm 110 ah x 2

Just out of curiosity, how did your options get narrowed down to these 2 batteries?

Bozzydogg02 said:
photonic universe 150 v solar controller

This one?

12V solar panels charging kits for caravans, motorhomes, boats, yachts, marine

12V solar panel solar charging kits for motorhome caravan boat campervan yacht marine off-grid

www.photonicuniverse.com

Bluedog225 · Oct 17, 2023

Your the first I’ve heard of actually buying a Victron battery.

Some more research may be in order.

Bozzydogg02 · Oct 17, 2023

Solarcabin Channel said:
What is your load or what are you planning to run?

I would go with at least 200Ah and maybe 300Ah with 500 watts of solar but depends on how you are using it.

The inverter for a couple of hours, lights for up to 12 hours (probably more like 6 but always over estimate) usb for carging phones 6 hours and to start up the diesel heater 6 times per day (I have no idea on how much the heater uses to get started sorry)

I should have also mentioned I’m going to be getting a generator in a few weeks and charging the batteries once or twice a week using that with a victron smart charger.

The main thing is working out weather I should be getting the gel for the deeper discharge ability or the vrla for the extra Ah?

Bozzydogg02 · Oct 17, 2023

MisterSandals said:
Just out of curiosity, how did your options get narrowed down to these 2 batteries?

This one?

12V solar panels charging kits for caravans, motorhomes, boats, yachts, marine

12V solar panel solar charging kits for motorhome caravan boat campervan yacht marine off-grid

www.photonicuniverse.com

To be honest I just seen victron as a trusted brand, others that I have spoken to have told me it’s about the best off grid stuff you can buy. But I guess that’s why I’m here to find out from the experts!

Yes that’s the solar controller ?

Solarcabin Channel · Oct 17, 2023

Bozzydogg02 said:
The inverter for a couple of hours, lights for up to 12 hours (probably more like 6 but always over estimate) usb for carging phones 6 hours and to start up the diesel heater 6 times per day (I have no idea on how much the heater uses to get started sorry)

I should have also mentioned I’m going to be getting a generator in a few weeks and charging the batteries once or twice a week using that with a victron smart charger.

The main thing is working out weather I should be getting the gel for the deeper discharge ability or the vrla for the extra Ah?

"How much power does a diesel heater use?

The heater's power use will depend on its size, but generally, diesel heaters will use 8 to 12 amps during start-up, with some models then requiring as little as 0.5 amps to run continuously, and an average of 1-2 amps."

That isn't much load at all so you should be fine with 200Ah of capacity.

I haven't used Victron batteries but I had 125 AH Vmax on my system and lasted for 10 years. Recently replaced with one LFP.

Bozzydogg02 · Oct 17, 2023

Solarcabin Channel said:
"How much power does a diesel heater use?

The heater's power use will depend on its size, but generally, diesel heaters will use 8 to 12 amps during start-up, with some models then requiring as little as 0.5 amps to run continuously, and an average of 1-2 amps."

That isn't much load at all so you should be fine with 200Ah of capacity.

I haven't used Victron batteries but I had 125 AH Vmax on my system and lasted for 10 years. Recently replaced with one LFP.

Amazing, thanks so much for your help!

Doggydogworld · Oct 17, 2023

This Victron data sheet shows three battery types: AGM and Gel "Deep cycle" and "Gel Long Life". The Deep Cycle batteries only last 500-700 cycles at 50% depth of discharge. That's less than two years of daily cycling. The Gel Long Life lasts 2500 cycles at 50% DoD and would be more appropriate for daily cycling.

LFP is typically rated for 3000-8000 cycles at 80-90% DoD. That's probably the more economic choice for daily cycling.

Bluedog225 · Oct 17, 2023

The Victron equipment is top tier. But the Victron batteries I’ve looked at (LiFePO4) were way overpriced.

I think it’s fair to say there are many other high quality battery brands that are a much better value proposition.

I’d look at SOK if you want a top notch battery. I anticipate 10 years of service if not stored very hot or charged when freezing.

Bozzydogg02 · Oct 18, 2023

Bluedog225 said:
The Victron equipment is top tier. But the Victron batteries I’ve looked at (LiFePO4) were way overpriced.

I think it’s fair to say there are many other high quality battery brands that are a much better value proposition.

I’d look at SOK if you want a top notch battery. I anticipate 10 years of service if not stored very hot or charged when freezing.

Thanks for the advice! I had a quick look at SOK and I don’t think theyre available in the UK and way out of my price range if I’m trying to get around 200ah. Again, thanks for your help and advice!

Bluedog225 · Oct 18, 2023

Will Prowse has lots of reviews of cheaper alternatives to SOK that are significantly cheaper and some reputed to be very good. Might be worth a look at his recent videos.

Curious how you are going to those panels to work with no sun? (kidding). Welcome to the forum.

TimE · Oct 18, 2023

Bozzydogg02 said:
To be honest I just seen victron as a trusted brand, others that I have spoken to have told me it’s about the best off grid stuff you can buy. But I guess that’s why I’m here to find out from the experts!

Yes that’s the solar controller ?

In my head, Victron AGMs would be a shocking waste of money. I would spend my money ensuring a robust charging system ro ensure whatever batteries i was using were charged to float everyday. Expensive batteries are destroyed just as easily as cheap ones by an inadequate charging setup

Supervstech · Oct 18, 2023

Bozzydogg02 said:
Thanks for the advice! I had a quick look at SOK and I don’t think theyre available in the UK and way out of my price range if I’m trying to get around 200ah. Again, thanks for your help and advice!

Remember, in your purchasing calculations, lead batteries you have to cut their available AH in half.
So, if you NEED 200Ah of available current, you have to buy 400Ah of battery.

With LFP, if you NEED 200Ah, you only need to buy 250Ah.

The different battery chemistries have different discharge curves and life cycles of use.

Bozzydogg02 · Oct 19, 2023

TimE said:
In my head, Victron AGMs would be a shocking waste of money. I would spend my money ensuring a robust charging system ro ensure whatever batteries i was using were charged to float everyday. Expensive batteries are destroyed just as easily as cheap ones by an inadequate charging setup

I’m adding a 400 w wind turbine this weekend, and looking into getting a generator and a 230 v smart charger in the next few weeks (once I’ve saved up again).

Would you say I’d be better off getting cheaper batteries and using the money I’ve saved from that to get a smart charger and old second hand generator?

See picture for wind turbine specs.

These are the products I’m thinking about if I was to not go for the victron battery’s:

Victron Energy Blue Smart IP65s Charger 12/5(1) 230V UK Retail BPC120533024R

The Blue Smart IP65 Charger is the new professional battery charger with built-in bluetooth. The Blue Smart IP65 Charger can be used on devices in…

batterygroup.co.uk

12V 115AH Expedition Plus AGM Deep Cycle Leisure Battery

12V 115Ah fit-and-forget AGM lead-acid battery for leisure, marine & many other deep cycle applications – from Expedition’s exclusive battery range. TECHNICAL INFORMATION Brand - Expedition Voltage - 12V Capacity (Ah) - 115 Construction - AGM Ideal Charge Voltage - 14.6 – 14.8V Top Up Charge...

www.wiredcampers.co.uk

12V 107Ah Deep Cycle Battery VRLA AGM Q-batteries 12LC-100

AGM battery Q-Batteries 12LC-100 12V 100Ah Maintenance-free lead battery ( lead fleece / AGM battery ) from the brand Quality-Batteries. Deep cycle…

batterygroup.co.uk

I plan to run the smart charger off any old inverter generator I can get my hands on (father in-law has a decent one I can lend but would rather get a cheap old one second hand one)

TimE · Oct 19, 2023

I would max out solar. My 920w of solar cost a fraction of the price of my 1.1m turbine. Forget what it says on the side of the wind turbine. You will only see 400w in a gale. Most of the time you will be lucky to see 100w. I will not be fitting another wind turbine. Mine is old and when it breaks, it will be removed for good.
We are out in the Caribbean. We used to see a lot of wind turbines but not any more. They are too much hassle. Noisy, never trouble free and expensive. Solar has replaced them and so many people now use lithium batteries that you dont need a wind turbine.

Bozzydogg02 · Oct 19, 2023

I have no more room on my roof for solar and to add any more would mean a new solar controller as mine is maxed out on what it can handle. Also we’re in the uk so not as fortunate as the Caribbean for sun hahah. I’m just putting alternatives in place for the winter as the uk doesn’t see much sun at all during the winter, during the spring/summer the solar panels I have are more than enough to keep us fully charged. I know that the wind turbine is not going to produce 400 w, probably about 20% of that but it’s better than nothing while the sun isn’t shining.

Also the generator will surely do a job a couple of times a week?

So as for my original question, would you get cheaper batteries (the ones I shared) and invest in a generator and charger or stick to the more expensive trusted ones and wait a few weeks to get a generator and charger?

I can’t afford lithium batteries, it’s just not an option at the moment, maybe in the future but I need something in place for the coming weeks.

MisterB1959 · Oct 19, 2023

as youre in the UK have a look at Fogstar batteries www.fogstar.co.uk -

i have a 300ah (£800) in my motorhome and a self assembled 14,3kw home storage battery (around £2400) at home (Essex UK) - very pleased woth their performance

There were some cheap vehicle batteries for sale on ebay the other day, which had been tested and were suitable for home storage systems from what i could see ..

8.4kWh ( 175ah ) 2022 Hyundai Batteries BMS Lithium Li ion Solar for 48v | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 8.4kWh ( 175ah ) 2022 Hyundai Batteries BMS Lithium Li ion Solar for 48v at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

and i wouldnt bother with the wind turbine, invest more in your batteries. even more so if you can get a cheap charging rate from one of the power suppliers, so you can charge during off peak and use it at standard rate. i do that and am paying @15p per kw at low rate then using that power when the rate is 36p ! so virtually getting half price electricity

Bozzydogg02 · Oct 19, 2023

Thanks for your help but my budget is £570 hence opting for agms, as I also need to include an inverter in this price, just trying to get the best bang for my buck, we hardly use any power just the battered old lead battery we are currently making do with is dead by 8 - 10 pm and then we’re onto candle light

Q-Dog · Oct 19, 2023

For daily use? I would want LiFePO4 ... especially with so little solar charging. LiFePO4 can charge faster than lead and last 4 or 5 times longer.

If you cycle cheap AGMs every day you will likely have to replace them in 2 years.

Supervstech · Oct 19, 2023

Bozzydogg02 said:
Thanks for your help but my budget is £570 hence opting for agms, as I also need to include an inverter in this price, just trying to get the best bang for my buck, we hardly use any power just the battered old lead battery we are currently making do with is dead by 8 - 10 pm and then we’re onto candle light

Please be open minded about this.

Lead acid type batteries have SEVERAL drawbacks over lithium.

Search around, look at cheapo lithium batteries.

No way on earth I would invest 500 in lead.

Lead REQUIRES a high watt charge, it REQUIRES to Reach FULL charge EVERY DAY, and you only get 1/2 the capacity you pay for.
Lead degrades rapidly if charge rate or fully charged doesn't happen, and Lead wastes watts when it is charging. The internal resistance is massive on Lead.

Lithium has none of these drawbacks.

The ONLY feature Lead has vs lithium is it can be charged win cold weather... so if your batteries will be stored in unconditioned space, Lead makes sense...
Otherwise it is a no brainer to get LFP...

Bluedog225 · Oct 19, 2023

The advice about lead versus LiFePO4 is sound. And the related advice about Victron battery price/value.

The advice about wind is good as well. I’ve yet to see a happy story about wind on this forum. Perhaps your location is particularly suited. Do you have neighbors with wind?

Many folks check in here with a partially executed plan and suffer from a bit of target fixation.

Solarcabin Channel · Oct 19, 2023

Supervstech said:
Please be open minded about this.

Lead acid type batteries have SEVERAL drawbacks over lithium.

Search around, look at cheapo lithium batteries.

No way on earth I would invest 500 in lead.

Lead REQUIRES a high watt charge, it REQUIRES to Reach FULL charge EVERY DAY, and you only get 1/2 the capacity you pay for.
Lead degrades rapidly if charge rate or fully charged doesn't happen, and Lead wastes watts when it is charging. The internal resistance is massive on Lead.

Lithium has none of these drawbacks.

The ONLY feature Lead has vs lithium is it can be charged win cold weather... so if your batteries will be stored in unconditioned space, Lead makes sense...
Otherwise it is a no brainer to get LFP...

I can confirm this:

After 10 years using Vmax tank AGMs they had degraded to about half the original capacity. Still would charge to full every day but night time draw would drain them overnight where they would last 3 nights when new.

That was the best available at the time and I have no complaints about those batteries. Zero maintenance in 10 years BUT they are very heavy and the price for them has not come down much in 10 years.

I replaced those three 125AH Vmax AGMs with one Enjoybot 400Ah LFP that weighs half as much and has more than twice the capacity and will maintain that capacity for 5000 cycles to 80% DOD.

The prices for LFP have come down rapidly and top line AGMs and the moderately priced LFP are about the same price but you get higher capacity and life cycles with the LFP.

That said, for a remote application where battery temperature will get below freezing the AGMs are better.

Solarcabin Channel · Oct 19, 2023

Bluedog225 said:
The advice about lead versus LiFePO4 is sound. And the related advice about Victron battery price/value.

The advice about wind is good as well. I’ve yet to see a happy story about wind on this forum. Perhaps your location is particularly suited. Do you have neighbors with wind?

Many folks check in here with a partially executed plan and suffer from a bit of target fixation.

I have a 400 watt Air X wind turbine in use for over 10 years now.

I have it on a 30 foot pole and we don't get great wind here but in winter when sunshine is at a minimum and we get more wind it helps keep my recharging station AGM full.

Most people way over estimate how much wind they get and you need 5mph constant wind just to get most turbines producing and at least 15-20mph to get significant production. That is constant wind not just gusts.

You also need to get a wind turbine very high and 50-100 feet to get good wind. That is difficult to do without a special expensive tower and guy wires.

Also be aware wind turbines can be noisy and don't attach one to your roof as they will vibrate causing noise in the house. I also recommend a 5 blade turbine over the 3 blade for better production. If the blades are white paint them black so birds can avoid them.

I always tell people to go with solar first and then if you want to try wind go for it.

My turbine sits idle most of the time and the buzzards seem to think it is a mate.

Which battery’s for daily use

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